Fans Forum

[divas]

Actually, the clubs that see sustained growth are the ones that engage with their community. For all we take the piss about how they’re bankrolled, it is something Spennymoor have done really well with in the last decade. Their big growth in attendances hasn’t just come about through on the field success.

It's actually a nice comparison.

Spennymoor are a team playing at the same level as us yet with a population of <20000 they are able to average 15 more fans per game than us with a population of c. 93000.

If we could get the same level of engagement we'd be getting 6000 through the gate (if we could fit them in)

If we did that we'd suddenly have a bit more spending power...

Remember Spennymoor play at the same level as us so that is not the issue.

Or you could just issue a load of free season tickets and count them on the attendance whether they turn up or not. Check their cup attendances v league.

Not saying they haven’t grown their fan base but it’s nowhere in the region of the number they claim

[lo36789]

We dropped by about the same amount against Chester in the FA Cup as well without our season ticket holders.

Spennymoor v Fylde - 1094 (69.5% of 1574 average)
Darlington v Chester - 1035 (66.4% of 1559 average)

And we were playing Chester...they were playing Fylde!

[divas]

Must be right then

[theoriginalfatcat]

Must be right then

I think your point stands Divas. Forget about the cup attendances.

If Spennymoor dole out free season tickets (which I think they do) and always count them as attending (which I think they do) then it’s not accurate to compare like for like.

[darlo_baron]

I fully accept that I am something of a dinosaur, but I expect a football club to concentrate on playing football. When did the purpose of a football club become to do good in the local community? Don’t get me wrong I am happy to donate towards the Foodbank etc. but surely this is a side issue not the primary purpose of a football club.

This might massively disappoint your view on the world but most of the professional clubs in the country are generally set up to return money to their shareholders especially those that are listed on the stock exchange.

It might shock you but the controlling shareholder of Darlington Football Club exists to provide community benefit....https://www.gov.uk/set-up-a-social-enterprise. That is its purpose.

Once you get out of the elite then the greatest value in football clubs is their status as community hub. The local club that I volunteer at provide free facilities to the biggest inclusion football set up in the country, let the local health trust use it's clubhouse for free while schools were closed to vaccinate kids, hires out the pitch for 20 hours per week for community use at cost (pitch maintenance) and so on...

Increasing access, increasing interest and participation in sport, providing opportunity to young and vulnerable people who would otherwise not have it.

If Darlington FC did a survey of all school kids under the age of 10 in the town this year on how many support Darlington. It might be 1%ish (at a guess). A measure of success could be to double that in 5 years.

That would be a long term growth ambition for the club...then it is a question of how do you make that happen.

Probably helps not getting pumped on a regular basis by god awful teams, in a poor ground with a match day atmosphere that is, at best, average.

We can sit and do all the outreach in the community we like I cannot see what would appeal to any youngster about coming to our home games. The view is restrictive, the team is average and the atmosphere is poor with what feels like an apathetic fan base and a constant lack of travelling support. Home games, for me, are a borderline chore currently and offer little in the way of entertainment or excitement.

I couldn't care less if people get nostalgic thinking about the football league. It should be our ambition, no matter how long it takes.

It alarms me that people are actually happy to sit plodding along at this level for eternity, especially in a ground which has extreme limitations on what can be achieved in terms of developing it.

Fortunately it appears DJ doesn't see it that way and hopefully has a vision for the future.

[theoriginalfatcat]

Dream on if it makes you happy, meanwhile in the real world, football clubs are for football.

I am afraid as we learnt many years ago in the professional game most are for money / business.

Amazing how short some memories are and clearly the permanent reminder at the ground isn't enough.

Seems to be all about making money based on what I'm reading above.

I don’t think people have forgotten what the sign at the ground is about, maybe a few who bang on about getting a Singh like figure back in but not many come on here. I could have got this wrong but I think people “above” are saying that “football” is what football clubs are about - most clubs lose money in any case, as they are subsidised in one way or another.

We are a football club, that’s why we exist, that’s why people come. We also run as a CIC, which is good, we can have both, it’s not one or the other.

[lo36789]

I think people “above” are saying that “football” is what football clubs are about - most clubs lose money in any case, as they are subsidised in one way or another.

It would be great if it were true though, but the reality is a lot more cynical...or maybe it is just that I am.

The main purpose of most clubs, and the basis for their 'investors' being their is to get a return on their investment - to return value to their shareholder NOT to their local communities.

That return is mostly monetary but can also be political (indirectly for monetary reasons).

most clubs lose money in any case, as they are subsidised in one way or another.

Doesnt necessarily equate to a drop in wealth and leverage of the majority shareholders.

It's an extreme example but after losses year on year since the Glazer takeover the market cap has increased from £800m to £2.2bn. Owning 70% of that is an increase of about £1bn in wealth...which I am almost certain is leveraged for further gains.

We are a football club, that’s why we exist, that’s why people come. We also run as a CIC, which is good, we can have both, it’s not one or the other.

Well by law only if you could demonstrate that we are operating the club for the benefit of the community.

Of course we could achieve both, but you have to do it in a certain way. Remember these are the objectives of the majority shareholder of the club...

- ... strengthening the bonds between the club and the community it serves
- achieving the greatest possible supporter and community influence in the running and ownership of the club
- promoting responsible and constructive community engagement...and encouraging the club to do the same

So 'community engagement' might sound like mumbo jumbo to some...but it is literally the primary objective of the majority shareholder.

Remember we are a community benefit society not a community interest company. The business has to run for the benefit of the community not just in their interests...

Don't get me wrong. I want us to do as well as we can on the pitch, but for me the primary goal is that the club exists and that it benefits as many people in the community as possible. They are not mutually exclusive but only one of those is the primary objective - so has to be the cornerstone of any club strategy.

[theoriginalfatcat]

That’s an interesting POV lo.I kind of see what you’re getting at and of course we are set up so that no one takes money out, there is no Singh like person with a money stranglehold over us. But a football club we are, and one that has to strive for achievable ambitions. Playing in the league above is realistic.

As a moot point I thought we were a CIC. I remember seeing CIC written all over stuff ten years ago.

[Old Git]

I think part of the problem is that in the first 4 years after our demotion we won 3 promotions and it felt like we were really going places. Of course, we would eventually hit a bit of a brick wall and we have. The last 5 years have seen no further progress up the pyramid but I think some progress off the pitch in terms of financial stability has been achieved.
Fans expectations were raised in the early days and it is much less exciting now that we are a mid table NLN team in a rugby stadium which we don’t own. For me if we don’t have a vision for the future that embraces further progress on the pitch and aspirations of moving to our own ground we will stagnate. If that happens our fan base is not going to increase, indeed it may decline as many of our current supporters age. It seems to me that we had at least as many if not more families and youngsters supporting us at Heritage Park than we do at Blackwell Meadows. Now we are back in Darlington where are the extra supporters we hoped for?
I can only put it down to two reasons.
1. Lack of success on the field.
2. Lack of atmosphere at BM.

[lo36789]

As a moot point I thought we were a CIC. I remember seeing CIC written all over stuff ten years ago.

It was a while back when there was a merger of the CIC, trust and supporters group.

That did allow the community share issue that was done and why that was different to previous funding pushes.

[lo36789]

aspirations of moving to our own ground we will stagnate.

I find it amazing that teams like Bayern Munich and Inter Milan can get by without having their 'own' ground but Darlington will stagnate because if it.

Equally if I am not mistaken Huddersfield, Bristol Rovers, Doncaster, Hull, Reading, Wycombe, Oxford, Notts County, Rochdale, Sheffield United, Wigan and Watford all manage to get by with ground-sharing.

There is quite a mixture of leasehold, freehold and just rental agreements amongst them mind.

[JasonDeVos]

I fully accept that I am something of a dinosaur, but I expect a football club to concentrate on playing football. When did the purpose of a football club become to do good in the local community? Don’t get me wrong I am happy to donate towards the Foodbank etc. but surely this is a side issue not the primary purpose of a football club.

This might massively disappoint your view on the world but most of the professional clubs in the country are generally set up to return money to their shareholders especially those that are listed on the stock exchange.

It might shock you but the controlling shareholder of Darlington Football Club exists to provide community benefit....https://www.gov.uk/set-up-a-social-enterprise. That is its purpose.

Once you get out of the elite then the greatest value in football clubs is their status as community hub. The local club that I volunteer at provide free facilities to the biggest inclusion football set up in the country, let the local health trust use it's clubhouse for free while schools were closed to vaccinate kids, hires out the pitch for 20 hours per week for community use at cost (pitch maintenance) and so on...

Increasing access, increasing interest and participation in sport, providing opportunity to young and vulnerable people who would otherwise not have it.

If Darlington FC did a survey of all school kids under the age of 10 in the town this year on how many support Darlington. It might be 1%ish (at a guess). A measure of success could be to double that in 5 years.

That would be a long term growth ambition for the club...then it is a question of how do you make that happen.

Probably helps not getting pumped on a regular basis by god awful teams, in a poor ground with a match day atmosphere that is, at best, average.

We can sit and do all the outreach in the community we like I cannot see what would appeal to any youngster about coming to our home games. The view is restrictive, the team is average and the atmosphere is poor with what feels like an apathetic fan base and a constant lack of travelling support. Home games, for me, are a borderline chore currently and offer little in the way of entertainment or excitement.

I couldn't care less if people get nostalgic thinking about the football league. It should be our ambition, no matter how long it takes.

It alarms me that people are actually happy to sit plodding along at this level for eternity, especially in a ground which has extreme limitations on what can be achieved in terms of developing it.

Fortunately it appears DJ doesn't see it that way and hopefully has a vision for the future.

Might as well just call it a day then???

[theoriginalfatcat]

Might as well just call it a day then???

The players did - last Saturday afternoon

[Darlogramps]

Now we are back in Darlington where are the extra supporters we hoped for?
I can only put it down to two reasons.
1. Lack of success on the field.
2. Lack of atmosphere at BM.

3. The negative image of Darlington FC (3 administrations, lots of local businesses and individuals losing out as a result). Don’t underestimate how damaging our spell at the Arena was. Everyone still associates that ground with us even now.

4. The unattractive nature of our level (Kettering at home on a January Saturday afternoon hardly screams glamour).

[MB86DFC]

Now we are back in Darlington where are the extra supporters we hoped for?
I can only put it down to two reasons.
1. Lack of success on the field.
2. Lack of atmosphere at BM.

3. The negative image of Darlington FC (3 administrations, lots of local businesses and individuals losing out as a result). Don’t underestimate how damaging our spell at the Arena was. Everyone still associates that ground with us even now.

4. The unattractive nature of our level (Kettering at home on a January Saturday afternoon hardly screams glamour).

5. Lack of decent away stand putting off away fans, restricting atmosphere. So for the few games where fans may actually come they can’t bring decent numbers

[lo36789]

4. The unattractive nature of our level (Kettering at home on a January Saturday afternoon hardly screams glamour).

Do you think that Stevenage, Barrow or Harrogate have any more glamour attached to them?

This isn't actually aimed directly at you particukarly. Should have been positioned "Does anyone think that..."

[lo36789]

I don't think anything is that unattainable to make BM a decent place to improve the atmosphere for football.

- A reasonably deep terrace covering 75% of the open end would be logical start.
- If we got more money then building a purpose built new, bigger stand where the current seating is. Reposition the existing stands almost either side of the Tin shed but on the touchline.

That would leave two open spaces where the pipe runs through. If I'm not mistaken as long as you don't build a temporary structure they would be perfectly able to be the space where you fit portable facilities such as a removable toilet units or food.

That would basically only leave the club house side. Which until we were FL wouldnt need changing anyway - if that time came the conversation can be had on how we adapt it. To me almost building up and over the roof of the changing rooms and out towards the pipe would be the best option at that point.

If the purpose built stand had a hospitality area operated only by the football club then we'd have as much as most FL sides (see Crewe, Crawley, Morecambe, Fleetwood, Salford). Would people go for that if that were the plan.

You would need the owners (fans) to raise £1.5m - £2m. Would an improved ground with our own facilities be enough or would it just be more of the same "own ground" "rugby club" "but the sign" "mutter mutter"

[theoriginalfatcat]

Lo, re your post above, to me, if we could develop B.M. as you suggest then that would be an idea, but how do you square the circle of paying shed loads of money out for something that doesn't belong to you? The clubs you mention above who don't own their own stadiums just pay rent surely? So are we going to consider spending a fortune on something that isn't ours? This would be the worst of both worlds.

[Heaton out]

I don't think anything is that unattainable to make BM a decent place to improve the atmosphere for football.

- A reasonably deep terrace covering 75% of the open end would be logical start.
- If we got more money then building a purpose built new, bigger stand where the current seating is. Reposition the existing stands almost either side of the Tin shed but on the touchline.

That would leave two open spaces where the pipe runs through. If I'm not mistaken as long as you don't build a temporary structure they would be perfectly able to be the space where you fit portable facilities such as a removable toilet units or food.

That would basically only leave the club house side. Which until we were FL wouldnt need changing anyway - if that time came the conversation can be had on how we adapt it. To me almost building up and over the roof of the changing rooms and out towards the pipe would be the best option at that point.

If the purpose built stand had a hospitality area operated only by the football club then we'd have as much as most FL sides (see Crewe, Crawley, Morecambe, Fleetwood, Salford). Would people go for that if that were the plan.

You would need the owners (fans) to raise £1.5m - £2m. Would an improved ground with our own facilities be enough or would it just be more of the same "own ground" "rugby club" "but the sign" "mutter mutter"

Why should we pay our hard earned to upgrade the rugby clubs facilities, a club that deep down doesn't really want us there but does need us financially! the only way BM would ever work is if we bought them out with the agreement that they use could the land behind the new stand for rugby games

[Old Git]

I don't think anything is that unattainable to make BM a decent place to improve the atmosphere for football.

- A reasonably deep terrace covering 75% of the open end would be logical start.
- If we got more money then building a purpose built new, bigger stand where the current seating is. Reposition the existing stands almost either side of the Tin shed but on the touchline.

That would leave two open spaces where the pipe runs through. If I'm not mistaken as long as you don't build a temporary structure they would be perfectly able to be the space where you fit portable facilities such as a removable toilet units or food.

That would basically only leave the club house side. Which until we were FL wouldnt need changing anyway - if that time came the conversation can be had on how we adapt it. To me almost building up and over the roof of the changing rooms and out towards the pipe would be the best option at that point.

If the purpose built stand had a hospitality area operated only by the football club then we'd have as much as most FL sides (see Crewe, Crawley, Morecambe, Fleetwood, Salford). Would people go for that if that were the plan.

You would need the owners (fans) to raise £1.5m - £2m. Would an improved ground with our own facilities be enough or would it just be more of the same "own ground" "rugby club" "but the sign" "mutter mutter"

Sounds like a potential solution to me, but the relationship with the rugby club would have to radically change before we should be spending more money at BM. At the moment we are only allowed occupancy for a few hours on a match day and as far as I know we have no permanent presence there. In fact we still haven’t got any signage to announce that we even exist. I know people who would consider themselves football fans, who don’t follow Darlington, and they don’t know where our home ground is. If you said we play at the rugby ground, most would assume you mean the Arena.

[lo36789]

Lo, re your post above, to me, if we could develop B.M. as you suggest then that would be an idea, but how do you square the circle of paying shed loads of money out for something that doesn't belong to you? The clubs you mention above who don't own their own stadiums just pay rent surely? So are we going to consider spending a fortune on something that isn't ours? This would be the worst of both worlds.

I think a lot pay leasehold so they don't own the land the stadium sits on. Think Man City pay £4.5m a year to lease the City of Manchester stadium but they paid for all the upgrade works...

If they ever left that stadium you tell me how you take your half of a stand with you somewhere else!

If you remember that is why there was all the uproar about West Ham and the City of London Stadium as they somehow managed to get it on the cheap as the Olympic Legacy pot paid for the changes they wanted.

They own all the infrastructure on top but the ground underneath belongs to someone else. I am not sure a football stadium is one of those things that you can just pack away every night and move somewhere else - so they are all really just renting what they put up it is just they are renting for 50-100 years.

Thing is - what I've just said is theoretical and it will always be theoretical until it is needed and funded...as will any "new ground" plans. Which is what I am not that it somehow instantly equates to 'progress'...and why I still think that focus on the community engagement is actually the priority...

[EDJOHNS]

aspirations of moving to our own ground we will stagnate.

I find it amazing that teams like Bayern Munich and Inter Milan can get by without having their 'own' ground but Darlington will stagnate because if it.

Equally if I am not mistaken Huddersfield, Bristol Rovers, Doncaster, Hull, Reading, Wycombe, Oxford, Notts County, Rochdale, Sheffield United, Wigan and Watford all manage to get by with ground-sharing.

There is quite a mixture of leasehold, freehold and just rental agreements amongst them mind.

You missed a few. York being 1.
Big difference is that certainly at York, Hull, Huddersfield, (who you also did not name), Wigan, and Rochdale, the football clubs are the lead tenant and not dictated to by the rugby clubs. Examples, Drink, food, advertising. The bar at those grounds all have computerised tills that give readouts of what is sold when and the club using the place that day then take the proceeds. Not as we do, where the rugby club get most of the profit and we only get a % of the take.
They also of course have decent grounds and not had to raise money to get their "home" to a state of being fit to use.
I fully expect Bury to fly up the leagues for exactly that last reason.

[lo36789]

I fully expect Bury to fly up the leagues for exactly that last reason.

Haha think they will be following Macclesfield - although with their 4G pitch they might have a rip it up or not decision to make in time.

[lo36789]

Not as we do, where the rugby club get most of the profit and we only get a % of the take.

Agree - but we also carry none of the risk. They pay all the costs of sales including staffing whether things are sold or not so they are entitled to some profit.

Seem to recall we increased prices by whatever it was to increase our cut and it lead to uproar that the rugby club would have the cheek to not provide us that service at cost.

[theoriginalfatcat]

Think Man City pay £4.5m a year to lease the City of Manchester stadium but they paid for all the upgrade works...

If they ever left that stadium you tell me how you take your half of a stand with you somewhere else!

If that's a question, is it? - I don't think the owners of Man City need to concern themselves too much over financial matters and it's not relevant to Darlo.

If we, Darlo, spend £1 million plus upgrading B.M. (which is possible and would solve problems) then it simply has to be on a far different set of circumstances than what we presently enjoy with the rugby club.

[Darlogramps]

4. The unattractive nature of our level (Kettering at home on a January Saturday afternoon hardly screams glamour).

Do you think that Stevenage, Barrow or Harrogate have any more glamour attached to them?

This isn't actually aimed directly at you particukarly. Should have been positioned "Does anyone think that..."

Yes I do actually, because one set of teams is at Tier 6 and the other set of teams is at Tier 4.

There’s a greater level of prestige in playing in League Two to the National League North certainly.

[comeondarlo]

4. The unattractive nature of our level (Kettering at home on a January Saturday afternoon hardly screams glamour).

Do you think that Stevenage, Barrow or Harrogate have any more glamour attached to them?

This isn't actually aimed directly at you particukarly. Should have been positioned "Does anyone think that..."

I find that a bit of a silly question tbh, of course playing in League 2 has more glamour (strange word to use) / prestige attached to them.

[lo36789]

4. The unattractive nature of our level (Kettering at home on a January Saturday afternoon hardly screams glamour).

Do you think that Stevenage, Barrow or Harrogate have any more glamour attached to them?

This isn't actually aimed directly at you particukarly. Should have been positioned "Does anyone think that..."

I find that a bit of a silly question tbh, of course playing in League 2 has more glamour (strange word to use) / prestige attached to them.

Haha I'll be honest I didn't realise the two could be used interchangeably (I'm still not sure they can).

I wouldn't deny prestige...glamour had a slightly different meaning to me when I read it.

[AndyPark]

It helps that Spenny charge next to nothing for a ST, and they also hand out ST’s free of charge to a lot of fans too.

I’ll be honest, I’m jealous as fuck that they’ve got a fantastic owner. Wish we had someone like him.

[onewayup]

Andy. Be very careful of what you wish for .
I personally don't want to see another Singh situation.