A figure of £270k has been quoted as being the overall annual running costs of Darlington Arena. Is this correct?

If so, I'm not saying it is wrong but it does seem on the high side. Could you give an approximate break-down?

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Creations by Paula Jane - celebration cakes and wedding stationery - 39a Bondgate, Darlington (opposite Riley's)

http://www.creationsbypaulajane.co.uk

I am sure we can put them on here. There was potential to find savings in amongst the costs but no guarantees that savings were possible.
I will ask Denis for the breakdown.

Thanks Craig, I look forward to seeing them.

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Creations by Paula Jane - celebration cakes and wedding stationery - 39a Bondgate, Darlington (opposite Riley's)

http://www.creationsbypaulajane.co.uk

Regarding the costs for electric, gas, water, stewards etc. It needs to be remembered that a lot of these costs are bringing revenue in e.g. stewards manning the car park, utilities in the bar and food outlets etc. Its no good just quoting a figure of 4k per month electric for example without stating what that electrics getting used for.

It still costs 4k though...

If we'd have been able to play in the BSP I think we had a business plan that made The Arena viable, though Laura knows better.

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http://twitter.com/Quakerz72

Yes, but if you take £1K a game in car park charges and pay out £200 to stewards for manning it, you can't just quote the £200 without stating the upside. Another example is gas where we've seen recent quotes of 'several thousand per month'. Apart from heating the water in the dressing rooms twice a month, what else in the Arena uses gas that doesn't bring in revenue?

I'm not saying it isn't viable at a certain level..

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http://twitter.com/Quakerz72

Two main factors.

1) The stadium is getting to the age where a lot of costly maintenance is needed - this won't really have a revenue associated that wouldn't normally be accrued without those costs.

2) The uncertainty around numbers using the facility for both match day and non match day revenue makes it a huge risk.

I'm pro the Arena but even I agree that these risks arent worth taking at the moment. What would you and other fans and investors say if there was a 100K shortfall next season due to the stadium that ultimately bankrupts us due to the low turnover we'll be operating at the level we'll be at

The fact remains that the 1883 board stated that to stay at the Arena would cost 270K per year in running costs. I can't dispute the amount because I have no access to accounts but find it very hard to see where this figure has come from without it including money used for non football related revenue generation e.g. operating costs for car parks, bars, food outlets etc. If these are included then it paints a completely different picture. Therefore in the interests of transparency the board have a duty to make available how they reached this sum by giving a concise breakdown.
Given that I, like others, had a fairly significant investment in the crowdcube model and are considering re-investing, I need to know that credible decisions are being made for the future of the football club that don't involve somebody just plucking a figure from thin air to justify a change of direction.
Regarding your comments on risk. As I mentioned in an earlier post, risk relates to uncertainties and can be either positive or negative. The amount of uncertainties in moving to Shildon far outweigh those that occur by staying at the Arena but differ in the fact that they are spread over a longer timeframe and don't have anywhere near the same amount of opportunities to exploit.

I understand the concern and share the disappointment that we are having to leave town and the arena. I can see why you'd like to see a more detailed explanation of the costs leading to the £270k pa, I too was surprised to read them.

However, on reflection I really do not think there was any alternative. The FA need a ground lease signing definitively somewhere as a condition of a playing licence and until that was done the decision of what league we'd be playing in would not be taken. It's still technically possible that we could end up in the Northern League.

Wherever we are we have a much reduced attendance and ticket price to consider, leading to a turnover I would estimate to be around half of this season's at a ballpark guess. We have no order book for any revenue creating activities at the arena, no promotion or publicity undertaken and a massive uncertainty about our very existence. I also understand that it was a 5 year lease on the table although I'm happy to be corrected on that.

With that in mind I can only conclude that staying at the Arena, whether it cost £270k pa, 170k pa or whatever would have put huge risk and uncertainty in to the clubs future, and by taking the hard and unpopular decision they have they have at least ensured that we have a known quantity of costs to plan against, therefore ensuring we can operate at minimum risk for the first 12 months.

Not a thought process you maybe subscribe to, but I hope you, like me, can still support the club going forward by making your planned investments.

I'm sure someone from 1883 will be along soon to give a response soon.

You have to remember that our turn over this season will be lower than years previous as ticket revenue will be less due to ticket prices and of course the chance of lower attendance due been in lower leagues. Then theres the chance of say not getting the best start to our season fans will drop off abit if the team dont perform so good! We cannot afford to take the risk in the arena on taking chances, 1883 are making sure we dont go the same route as with the last 3 chairman
Anyway I don't see the point of this subject, we in Shildon so let's get on with it! There's more pressing matters for Craig and the board to deal with like a team and a manager!!!!!

@m62exile @Darlo nutz

Here, here!

The Arena is gone.....so 270K or £1 is irrelevant.
Let's move onwards and upwards...

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where we play in the short term isn't an issue....the fact we are playing at all is important!!
Founder Member 1883CIC
Come on Darlo

I'm also pro Arena, the facilities are first class and have such potential.

I'm also pro me owning a six bed mansion with a swimming pool, games room and 7 acres. However, I can't afford it yet. So I will cut my cloth and not take the huge financial risk and stick with where I am for now.

As has been said above the 10 year guaranatees are also due to expire resulting in exceptional maintenance costs

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@hobartpaving76 on twitter

Spot on!

It would seem that a few still have not grasped this yet.

Utility costs
Rent/Rates/refuse £51,000
Electric/Gas £50,400
Water/Insurance £63,000
Total £164,400

Stadium maintenance costs
Wages/Materials £26,200
Safety/Security expenses. £4,565
Machinery & Pitch Main. £45,600
Stewarding/Matchday
Safety £24,000
Total £100,365

In addition Significant Stadium Maintenance Costs:
• Steel – non galvanised steel used with 10yr guarantee life (rust) - to paint;
• Roof bolts – many thousands & all need tightening to comply with the law;
• PA, CCTV and emergency power systems no preventive maint. for several years;
• Water treatment and frost protection throughout the stadium i.e. all stands.

This breakdown is based on historic fact and as you can see, it was not a viable option to remain at the arena. You will also realise why we couldn't agree on a match day lease as the costs that would have been met by S & S would have been too great.

Tori

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Let's be proud of what we have achieved, Darlington Football Club needs to survive so let's all be in this together because this is your club now and your club needs you.

Thanks Tori, gives an insight for the people that still believe the arena was the place to be, to bed! Clearly the arena was not meant to be, long live darlo and 1883 onwards and upwards!!!

To put it bluntly - Effing Heck!!!!!! Or words to that effect! To be fair though, this is the first time that actual figures have been offered by anyone, so at least we can now all safely say that at the moment the Arena is definitely not an option - to us or anyone really! I wonder what S & S think, seeing as they are now left with it and no-one to help with the running etc. Wouldn't be surprised if it is demolished after all and the land built on in the not too distant future. The Council won't want an empty stadium which probably won't even have the relevant safety certificates before too long. Not many options open really. Still, you never know what the future may bring.

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COME ON DARLO!

Hopefully this will kill off any ambition by some for us to play there next season.

There are opportunities to reduce every single one of those bills, and what are we planning as a budget for when we return home as every stadium will have bills to pay. There is no reason why the arena should cost so much, parts could be mothballed all it would take would be the will to do it, has anyone even looked into this has the council been approached for a rates reduction for unused parts of the arena, has anyone looked for the 60k water leak that is costing so much, £47k for pitch maintenance try just cutting the grass once a week etc., all little things would save DFC giving up playing football in Darlo for the first time in our 130 year history
Why are so many people using the arena as an excuse for DFC to run out of town when its only a steel and concrete structure. Moving out of town is a BIG mistake and using 1883s logic it looks like we will never return, as no stadium will ever be as cheap as ground shearing at Shildon.

Darlington Football club should never ever leave Darlington as I fear that the numbers for our return home will never add up and to me this is a bigger threat than going bust.
No matter what the happy clappers on this MB say a proportion of fans are not happy about the move out of town and we need to see definitive plans for our return before we can re engage with our towns club.

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Foes List. none, I love everyone me.

I think very few are happy about moving out of town. A lot see it as the only sensible option. Look at the numbers Ted! Even if you reduced them by 10% that's still way over 200k for a club playing in the evostik at best! The arena would kill the club if we stop there at the moment.

What's slightly less obvious is why the arena was always blamed when we were in L2 with a much higher turnover, but that's a different issue

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Boycott greedy clubs!!

I am looking at the numbers and I can not believe that water cost are over 60k, if that cant be halved I will eat hay with a donkey, same as the gas bill.
Also a vital piece of information is missing and that is how much money is generated by the arena which will be either be reduced or lost with our towns club renting a grass field in another community outside of its home town.

I wish as much effort had been spent on reducing arena costs as trying to validate the move out of town.

If it takes a year to sort out selves out then so be it, but I fear a nomadic existence for DFC, and I will do everything in my power to get us back home, thats where my time and investments will be going once a clear vision and plan is in place.

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Foes List. none, I love everyone me.

Ted, we're all keen together back to town but come on. Even slashing those costs and ignoring the ongoing maintenance as you've done would mean we'd be sitting here having to raise £400k to pay creditors and pay for the stadium to get us to the end of season 1. That's before you've purchased a training ball or paid for a single player.

We don't know what league we're in and therefore can't really have any clear idea what our turnover will be. I don't like it any more than you but a blind man on a galloping horse can see we couldn't commit to staying at the Arena next season.

Ted - the water cost was covered in a post by Laura Drew. It's possible the "lake" on the arena site is being filled under a section 6 requirement.

I'm sure some of those costs could be reduced but your simple "mothballing" notion isnt grounded in reality. For starters we haven't been using at least half the ground in recent seasons, technically it may not be easy to reduce heating for example. You will still need to maintain the whole structure with it tendency for burst water pipes, etc in winter. Those exceptional maintaince costs, painting, bolt tightening, etc will not be cheap either. Plus the stewarding requirements due to ground layout and size will always be more than at a smaller ground.

In summary it was too much of a risk.

When starting a new business, effectively what 1883 are doing, you first need to minimise the cost base and have certainty over the worst case scenario. We couldnt achieve that at the Arena as S&S would not agree to rent it on a match day basis and we dont know what league we will be in so therefore the best alternative was a ground share.

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Robbie Painter - http://twitter.com/RobbiePainter

Next season we are playing at Shildon and there is nothing I can do about that, but we don't have to give up on the arena altogether as by re-modelling it and properly mothballing everything but one stand will reduce costs. The stadiums ten year maintenance costs are a problem but not as big a problem as financing and building a ground from scratch and in 12 months. I know which is the most achievable in both time and costs out of those two tasks. (would you move house just cos your front door needs painting).

I fear that any stadium costs will look excessive in comparison to Shildon, making our move home nigh on impossible.

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Foes List. none, I love everyone me.

I highly doubt 1883 moved out of town without seriously trying to make the arena work financially. Very few wanted to move out of town, and you aren't the only one who is desperate to move back into town as soon as possible.

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Boycott greedy clubs!!

@Ted_do,

Thought you were making progress mate, a couple of days ago you went off to your rugger mate and came back with half a nugget of a good idea.

You said - "I will do everything in my power to get us back home...".

Can we hold you to that promise?

The arena running costs could, of course, be reduced somewhat by making sensible savings and yes perhaps revenue could be increased by better use of the facilities on non-matchdays.

Problem is though we are seriously stretched for every penny right now and nothing that we can feasibly try to increase arena revenue is going to get us the income we need.

At this present time we have to find big money to secure our short term future, then there is the playing budget to add on then the practicalities of running the club ongoing and then - and we hope - we just might make a profit by next summer - just think of that. In the black!

If we make a profit we will have greater confidence for the following season because we would know that the decisions taken have been wise ones.

The return back into town is a HUGE priority - but this is secondary to the MOST IMPORTANT priority of OUR club actually existing!

Well there you go one myth blown out of the water so to speak straight away, "the water cost was covered in a post by Laura Drew. It's possible the "lake" on the arena site is being filled under a section 6 requirement" This is actually wrong as It is against the law under the water act and EA`s consent (FACT) to discharge chlorinated water into the environment, there is no section 6 or whatever so there is another FACT that is actually wrong about the arena.

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Foes List. none, I love everyone me.

ted - you need to do a full cost-benefit analysis. The arena could possibly work in the future however it will cost us £2.4m to buy it and potentially £200k+ per year to run it. Those exceptional maintaince costs are only going to increase and become more frequent as the structure gets older. Add on the fact that it's far too big for our needs and is disliked by a large % of our fan base. On the upside it has excellent facilities, good revenue generating potential & no planning issues.

Now attempt to work out the figures for a new ground, how it would be funded, how quickly it could be built and annual costs plus how well received it would be by our fan base.

There is no clear cut answer and I'm sure all options will be fully examined by 1883.

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Robbie Painter - http://twitter.com/RobbiePainter

Thanks for the clarification. I was simply paraphrasing from memory what LD said and it was only suggested by her as a possibility IIRC. Unfortunately your point makes the case even worse for the Arena as it suggests the high water bill is all down to use within the Arena and therefore gives less scope for reducing it.

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Robbie Painter - http://twitter.com/RobbiePainter