Democracy under threat.

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DarloOnTheUp
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:50 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:35 pm
Oh I fully understand the logic of keeping no deal on the table. But it is monumentally stupid logic.

Firstly, stop pretending this is some kind of ordinary negotiation. It isn’t. It is about how our country functions post-Brexit. It is about the economy, security, trade and so on.
You’re going on like it’s some kind of business deal. It’s not. These are people’s lives and jobs you’d be messing with.

Your argument that it is a threat to other nations’ economies is beyond idiotic. Because if it’s a threat to other nations’ economies, then it damages our own substantially. If the threat is against them, it is also against us. To say otherwise is incorrect. And we know No Deal is damaging to the UK economy because of the impact assessments published by the UK Government.

And what a negotiating tactic you’re advocating: “Give me what I want or I’ll kneecap myself.” There is no sanity in that position at all.

You can prepare all you like, it’s still not going to prevent economic damage. By definition, exiting on a no deal basis and presumably WTO terms, is the least desirable and least preferential outcome. Nor does it resolve the issues around the Irish border, EU citizen’s rights (remember the principle of ‘Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed’), trade terms, movement of people and so on.

There is no point keeping no deal on the table if you don’t want it to happen. And if you want no deal to happen, then I’d recommend reading the Government’s impact assessments. You’ll rapidly change your mind.
I thought you might respond like this. As I said: it's a strawman argument to suggest that the position is “give me what I want or I’ll kneecap myself". It's more "negotiate fairly or we'll both suffer". As I also said, the threat is against them, just how from their side, the threat is against us.

And there's a line to be drawn where No Deal is better than the deal offered. In my opinion, this line has been crossed.

You need to keep No Deal on the table, otherwise the other side will take advantage of you. Our side are s*** scared of No Deal, and the EU know this, hence they can take advantage of this fact and make any demands they want.

If you want a good deal, then you need to be genuinely willing to walk away with No Deal. And if No Deal is on the table, then it's a definite possibility. If you rule out No Deal, then you have no bargaining chip.

I don't know how many different ways I can word this.
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:35 pm
The biggest issue is the entire sequencing of the talks. Theresa May caved into the EU’s demands of notification before negotiations (I.E. triggering Article 50 before beginning Withdrawal Agreement negotiations with the EU). This had the effect of putting the UK against the clock, particularly as it hadn’t established what exactly it wanted, or established what Leave looked like.

This was compounded by agreeing to take the Withdrawal negotiations first, followed by the Future Relationship talks. Had these run concurrently, it would have reduced issues around the Irish Border, for example as it wouldn’t have required a backstop, because that issue would be sorted by deciding your permanent trading relationship (remember, the backstop and interim customs arrangements were/are only there in case an permanent agreement couldn’t be made). Make the agreement and the issue is no longer a major one.

Hindsight is wonderful, but the failure to decide what Leave meant and provide a mandate for that, is what’s led to this mess. Having secured an exit vote in 2016, the next step should have been to secure a mandate on the terms of departure, either through a referendum or General Election.
This part I completely agree with, some excellent points made here.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:15 am

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:45 pm
Well, if I’d ever said that the EU’s standards are better than its member countries, you’d have a point. But as the EU sets *minimum* standards to ensure harmonisation for ease of trade, how can they be better than those of its member countries? Think about it.

These minimum standards allow those trading countries to confidently trade with each other without the need to constantly check for compliance. It makes trade so much easier
I'm confused, what exactly is your issue here? Now you're mentioning ease of trade? :crazy:

The EU tends to act with a one size fits all mentality for numerous countries each with their own needs. I prefer our country setting standards that suit our country, and our country alone. If ease of trade is the biggest issue then that's something I can live with.
Whoaaaa right there! What’s my issue? Presumptuous or what!
My post was in response to someone who thought the EU sets standards lower than the UK, which is plainly wrong - and for clarity I’ll repeat they are baseline minimum standards whereby any EU country is able to exceed them
Ease of trade is “crazy” now? If you set standards to suit your own country, they don’t necessarily suit other countries with which you wish to trade. If the UK does exit the EU, it’s raison d’etre will be ease of trade with the EU and everyone else because the alternatives are tariffs, barriers and costs with resulting effects on jobs and businesses.


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:25 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:12 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:32 am
EDJOHNS wrote:
As much as I voted to Leave, I don’t believe No Deal is a good option for our country. From the Government’s own economic assessments, it would be massively damaging to our economy. By definition, trading on WTO terms is the worst case scenario, the least desirable outcome.

It doesn’t resolve anything either. On Day 1, you still have to have an agreement over the Ireland border issue. How do you resolve that one?

To me wanting to have the no deal option is like saying “If you don’t give us a good deal, we’re going to shoot ourselves in the legs.” It’s not much a strategy to threaten to massive economic damage to yourself in protest at not getting the deal you want.

That’s why I’m relaxed about no deal not happening. A deal has to be preferential. No deal to me is the lazy, emotional option.

Yet again, I have said far more than once, I did not believe no deal was the way to go. What I have said repeatedly is that once it was off the table the EU,(in general), could sit tight and say "Take this deal as we will not discuss any other deal" Had they believed that we may leave without a deal they may have been more open to the idea of talking longer and harder and just perhaps, giving a little. With no deal not an option there was no reason whatever for them to keep negotiating. Again, I don't see how that is hard to understand.



Final point - you said in a previous post you wanted to stop mud-slinging and have proper debates. I’m more than happy to do that but it does require you to put your hands up and admit when you’re wrong, like on the issue of Juncker and the extension.
Notice I’ve tried to keep it reasonable in my reply here. Politely, I’m going to ask you lay-off the passive aggressive digs towards me and focus on the actual arguments.

I will stop the digs when you drop the superior attitude. There is a lot I could, and want to say. To do so however would mean me giving out to much personal information, and that I am not willing to do.

I want rid of the EU. I want rid of the Euro. Some say the 2 are not linked, but in fact they are totally linked. I am going to keep this next comment very general and I will not be drawn on it.
Many years ago I was managing an English tea rooms for a friend in Bruges on a 3 year contract. I got involved in helping tourists with problems of all sorts.I found I enjoyed this, and it led me into a totally different area of work that I had never envisaged. Long story much shortened, I eventually, some years later, wound up investing in a couple of countries in the EU which are in the Euro.
Though I am now 7 years retired my family, who do not really want to be involved, are being forced to keep part of the business going because I am not allowed to remove the investment I put in because of the financial situation. We are not talking making a profit on my investment here, we are talking My own money, spent on office/living premises in Athens. I have 2 options, keep it going or walk away and leave them to rot. and yes, it is basically Germany who are stopping me from getting out, as we are limited to how much we are allowed to remove from Greek banks.


I can understand your concerns about Northern Ireland in this deal, and to some extent I actually agree
But I’m struggling to see an alternative that doesn’t require a hard border. And given the historical problems of Ireland, and the threats given just this week by Irish dissidents to target any new border infrastructure, it is essential that issue, for instance is resolved properly.
How can it be "resolved" with this deal? I see this going right back to the worst days of the 70's as it is the perfect excuse for those who want the troubles to resume, and there are those about.
I’d suggest reading the text of the deal, which you clearly haven’t done, and you’ll understand why it resolves the Irish border issue. It’s not perfect, but it is a solution.

As for going back to the days of the Troubles, that’s what we risk with no deal. If we exit with no deal, there is a probability of needing to install hard border infrastructure on both sides of the Irish Border. This is because, well, you haven’t got an alternative to avoid the necessary checks if the UK and the EU haven’t reached agreement on managing their different customs arrangements, to avoid illegal smuggling and so on.

But you don’t need me to know why that, because of historical reasons, is majorly problematic in Ireland. Indeed, just this week, Irish dissident terrorists said any new hard border infrastructure would be “a legitimate target” for attacks.

This is why your insistence the backstop was “a smokescreen” (your words) demonstrates ignorance. The backstop, in Theresa May’s deal, prevented this hard border scenario by keeping Northern Ireland in regulatory alignment with the EU, thus preventing the need for checks (I.E no hard border infrastructure).

Let’s be clear, the Irish border issue is a major sticking point that has to be resolved. And all you no-dealers haven’t the faintest clue how to solve it. So actually, the most likely way to return to the worst days of the Troubles is actually via no-deal, and not the Boris deal which actually avoids customs checks on the Irish land border(by shifting them to the Irish Sea). Again, not perfect but infinitely better than the no-deal alternative.
And you are doing it yet again. Show me where I said I WANT a no deal. I said very very clearly that I wanted a deal, and that no deal is better than this deal, but WE SHOULD HAVE KEPT THE THREAT ON THE TABLE. We actually agree about an awful lot in many ways, even though we come from different ends. My belief is that this mess has been deliberately manufactured. Just about all the team who set out to sort out leaving wanted us to stay in. Did they even try to get reasonable deals sorted? Why, having taken so long to invoke article 50 did they go in with no seeming plan of action? If they were not ready and did not have a plan, why not explain that simple fact to the country and wait to invoke until the picture became clearer?
I want out. I did not vote to join,(no-one did), and I totally dislike what it has become and the picture being painted by the loudest of the mob as to what it is to become.
3 years ago I was happy to vote leave, now, like so many more, I am simply fed up with it and want it over and done with. BUT I am a firm believer in democracy and no matter how anyone wants to twist "people change their minds" etc we voted to leave, not to chuck it about for 3 years then come back and give the remainders another go at it.
IF after we leave another vote was taken and it said rejoin by majority, I would not like it, but would accept it. Yes I know to do that would cost a fortune and we would get worse deals and all the rest of it, but any other way is simply NOT democratic.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by loan_star » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:50 am

QuakerPete wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:15 am

My post was in response to someone who thought the EU sets standards lower than the UK, which is plainly wrong - and for clarity I’ll repeat they are baseline minimum standards whereby any EU country is able to exceed them
But the minimum standards the EU set ARE LOWER than what we do already!! That is a fact, its not plainly wrong at all!

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:22 pm

So, today we have the Speaker directly challenged as to his impartiality based on his ruling re' the government having a "rerun of Saturday"
His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.

Shame on the entire house.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:11 am

EDJOHNS wrote:So, today we have the Speaker directly challenged as to his impartiality based on his ruling re' the government having a "rerun of Saturday"
His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.

Shame on the entire house.
The Speaker who was warmly congratulated by the same complainers in March 2019 when May’s vote was disallowed. You can see the irony (and the hypocrisy) here


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:55 am

QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:11 am
EDJOHNS wrote:So, today we have the Speaker directly challenged as to his impartiality based on his ruling re' the government having a "rerun of Saturday"
His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.

Shame on the entire house.
The Speaker who was warmly congratulated by the same complainers in March 2019 when May’s vote was disallowed. You can see the irony (and the hypocrisy) here


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Ed your completely right, he is so biased that it's embarrassing he should be ashamed.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by loan_star » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:52 am

QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:11 am
EDJOHNS wrote:So, today we have the Speaker directly challenged as to his impartiality based on his ruling re' the government having a "rerun of Saturday"
His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.

Shame on the entire house.
The Speaker who was warmly congratulated by the same complainers in March 2019 when May’s vote was disallowed. You can see the irony (and the hypocrisy) here


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Because he didnt want Mays deal either. He is showing bias against any form of deal and would rather remain.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:18 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:11 am
EDJOHNS wrote:So, today we have the Speaker directly challenged as to his impartiality based on his ruling re' the government having a "rerun of Saturday"
His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.

Shame on the entire house.
The Speaker who was warmly congratulated by the same complainers in March 2019 when May’s vote was disallowed. You can see the irony (and the hypocrisy) here


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Ed your completely right, he is so biased that it's embarrassing he should be ashamed.
Perhaps you should have replied to EDJOHNS instead?


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:21 pm

loan_star wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:11 am
EDJOHNS wrote:So, today we have the Speaker directly challenged as to his impartiality based on his ruling re' the government having a "rerun of Saturday"
His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.

Shame on the entire house.
The Speaker who was warmly congratulated by the same complainers in March 2019 when May’s vote was disallowed. You can see the irony (and the hypocrisy) here


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Because he didnt want Mays deal either. He is showing bias against any form of deal and would rather remain.
Following Erskine May to the letter and even some of the Tories agreed with the decision.


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:57 pm

The Prime minister has been on his feet for about 45 minutes.
He might just pull this off !!!!!

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:58 pm

QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:11 am
EDJOHNS wrote:So, today we have the Speaker directly challenged as to his impartiality based on his ruling re' the government having a "rerun of Saturday"
His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.

Shame on the entire house.
The Speaker who was warmly congratulated by the same complainers in March 2019 when May’s vote was disallowed. You can see the irony (and the hypocrisy) here


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Did you not read the bit I complained about?. ...... His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:22 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:58 pm
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:11 am
EDJOHNS wrote:So, today we have the Speaker directly challenged as to his impartiality based on his ruling re' the government having a "rerun of Saturday"
His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.

Shame on the entire house.
The Speaker who was warmly congratulated by the same complainers in March 2019 when May’s vote was disallowed. You can see the irony (and the hypocrisy) here


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Did you not read the bit I complained about?. ...... His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.
QuakerPete has a habit of completely missing the point people are trying to make.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:46 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:11 am
EDJOHNS wrote:So, today we have the Speaker directly challenged as to his impartiality based on his ruling re' the government having a "rerun of Saturday"
His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.

Shame on the entire house.
The Speaker who was warmly congratulated by the same complainers in March 2019 when May’s vote was disallowed. You can see the irony (and the hypocrisy) here


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Did you not read the bit I complained about?. ...... His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.
As the same people were firstly congratulating The Speaker in March 2019 for May’s Deal and then hounding him on Monday (which he courteously pointed out), perhaps he is entitled to a smirk or two or, what’s that word again . . . Schadenfreude . . . it’s German, I think!


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:47 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
EDJOHNS wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:58 pm
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:11 am
EDJOHNS wrote:So, today we have the Speaker directly challenged as to his impartiality based on his ruling re' the government having a "rerun of Saturday"
His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.

Shame on the entire house.
The Speaker who was warmly congratulated by the same complainers in March 2019 when May’s vote was disallowed. You can see the irony (and the hypocrisy) here


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Did you not read the bit I complained about?. ...... His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.
QuakerPete has a habit of completely missing the point people are trying to make.
It was such a low grade point, I surprised myself by replying


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:38 pm

QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:47 pm
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
EDJOHNS wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:58 pm
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:11 am
EDJOHNS wrote:So, today we have the Speaker directly challenged as to his impartiality based on his ruling re' the government having a "rerun of Saturday"
His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.

Shame on the entire house.
The Speaker who was warmly congratulated by the same complainers in March 2019 when May’s vote was disallowed. You can see the irony (and the hypocrisy) here


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Did you not read the bit I complained about?. ...... His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.
QuakerPete has a habit of completely missing the point people are trying to make.
It was such a low grade point, I surprised myself by replying


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So you think that the Speaker, who don't forget is supposed to be totally neutral, sniggering at MP's and basically telling them I am headmaster and you can't do anything about it is a "LOW GRADE POINT"?
Someone who is meant to keep the house in line and on track can turn the whole process into a joke that only he is part of and everyone else has to bow down to him and suffer his sarcastic attitude?

You are entitled to your opinion. But you just admitted to having stupid opinions.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:23 pm

Great news as the second reading of the brexit deal has been passed, although I feel the Government will lose this timetable vote & then what happens? Boris has indicated that he will pull the bill & seek a general election.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:39 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:23 pm
Great news as the second reading of the brexit deal has been passed, although I feel the Government will lose this timetable vote & then what happens? Boris has indicated that he will pull the bill & seek a general election.
Pete after the second vote was lost the commentators said because the first vote was won it now becomes law we must leave, and if they try to delay any further they just make a no deal even more likely.

How magnanimous of Corbyn to finally offer to work together !!!! Dead man walking.

Been a very interesting days viewing. Can't wait for tomorrows episode!!

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by OHDFC » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:18 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:47 pm
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
EDJOHNS wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:58 pm
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:11 am
The Speaker who was warmly congratulated by the same complainers in March 2019 when May’s vote was disallowed. You can see the irony (and the hypocrisy) here


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Did you not read the bit I complained about?. ...... His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.
QuakerPete has a habit of completely missing the point people are trying to make.
It was such a low grade point, I surprised myself by replying


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So you think that the Speaker, who don't forget is supposed to be totally neutral, sniggering at MP's and basically telling them I am headmaster and you can't do anything about it is a "LOW GRADE POINT"?
Someone who is meant to keep the house in line and on track can turn the whole process into a joke that only he is part of and everyone else has to bow down to him and suffer his sarcastic attitude?

You are entitled to your opinion. But you just admitted to having stupid opinions.
So you critise the Speaker and Blackford for their attitude but support a Prime Minister who:
Lies;
Breaks the law;
Misleads the Head of State;
Uses inflammatory language;
Threatens and kicks out party members who disagree with him.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:18 am

OHDFC wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:18 am
EDJOHNS wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:47 pm
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
EDJOHNS wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:58 pm


Did you not read the bit I complained about?. ...... His response? .........To turn it into smirk-fest.
QuakerPete has a habit of completely missing the point people are trying to make.
It was such a low grade point, I surprised myself by replying


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So you think that the Speaker, who don't forget is supposed to be totally neutral, sniggering at MP's and basically telling them I am headmaster and you can't do anything about it is a "LOW GRADE POINT"?
Someone who is meant to keep the house in line and on track can turn the whole process into a joke that only he is part of and everyone else has to bow down to him and suffer his sarcastic attitude?

You are entitled to your opinion. But you just admitted to having stupid opinions.
So you critise the Speaker and Blackford for their attitude but support a Prime Minister who:
Lies;
Breaks the law;
Misleads the Head of State;
Uses inflammatory language;
Threatens and kicks out party members who disagree with him.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
Jeeees, another 1 who wants an argument for sod all sake.

OK go on, show me where I say I support BJ? .... Just once? ... I have said Go BJ get it done. That is me supporting Brexit not BJ. I could not give a monkeys toss who is Prime minister. I want out of the EU. If he could provide that tomorrow I would lick the feet of Hartlepools mayor.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:13 pm

Hartlepool haven’t got a mayor, those days have gone.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:33 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:13 pm
Hartlepool haven’t got a mayor, those days have gone.

Don't they? Are they under a Cleveland 1 or the Boro 1?
Either way that would make it a slightly better thought.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:32 pm

Ed, from Wiki -- I remembered this story because of the football connection.


The Mayor of Hartlepool was the executive mayor of Hartlepool Borough Council in County Durham, England. Established in 2002 and abolished in 2013, all three terms of office were served by Stuart Drummond.

The office was established in 2002 following a referendum the previous year in which governance by a directly elected mayor was favoured over a cabinet system. Another referendum in 2012 produced the converse result, and the office was abolished in May 2013.[1]

Drummond was first elected in 2002[2] and was re-elected in 2005[3] and 2009.[4] Drummond was the first mayor in Britain to win a third term.[4]
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:23 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:32 pm
Ed, from Wiki -- I remembered this story because of the football connection.


The Mayor of Hartlepool was the executive mayor of Hartlepool Borough Council in County Durham, England. Established in 2002 and abolished in 2013, all three terms of office were served by Stuart Drummond.

The office was established in 2002 following a referendum the previous year in which governance by a directly elected mayor was favoured over a cabinet system. Another referendum in 2012 produced the converse result, and the office was abolished in May 2013.[1]

Drummond was first elected in 2002[2] and was re-elected in 2005[3] and 2009.[4] Drummond was the first mayor in Britain to win a third term.[4]
OK I will change it to London's mayor. I know there is still 1 of them. As I follow WHU certainly not a fan of his.

70 years old and never had a foot fetish before !!!!

EDJOHNS
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:51 am

Watched the children in the playground,(sorry, parliament), again most of yesterday. Can't even agree to a date for the election siting so many different reasons it was crazy.
The 1 that really stuck in my craw was allowing 16 and 17 year olds to vote. 2 points.
Scotland and Wales both have already allowed this. Fine, no problem, it was in their last manifesto to do so.BUT,
1), If it is suddenly so important to labour party, put it in your manifesto for the coming election.
2), This is totally an ENGLISH decision to make now as the others have already implemented it. What the hell were the Scottish and Welsh MP's doing joining in this debate? It just shows how lopsided the houses of parliament are now. The Scotts in particular were very vociferous. So much for respecting individual countries rights to manage themselves!!!!
Finally, yet again, the threat to break away and be "independent" from the Scotts.
First topic of the devolution, How and when are they going to repay the investment made by England when the Bank of Scotland went pop?
Nothing less than blackmail. (We are the minority, but you must do as we tell you).

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OHDFC
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by OHDFC » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:14 pm

16 & 17 year olds can vote in the Scottish and Welsh parliamentary elections but not in the UK General Election. Therefore not a totally English decision.

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EDJOHNS
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:14 pm

OHDFC wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:14 pm
16 & 17 year olds can vote in the Scottish and Welsh parliamentary elections but not in the UK General Election. Therefore not a totally English decision.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
I am aware of that. Simply pointing out the uneven playing field now that Scotland and Wales have their own assemblies. They get to vote on things that have effect on England while saying we should not have a say in what effects them.

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grytters
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by grytters » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:51 pm

Now this is a threat to democracy.

The second greatest bunch of scum in Northern Ireland attempt to take the top spot.

Ladies and gentlemen, the UDA -

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/polit ... ssion=true
A hyena dancing on the grave of a lion.

lo36789
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:50 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:14 pm
OHDFC wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:14 pm
16 & 17 year olds can vote in the Scottish and Welsh parliamentary elections but not in the UK General Election. Therefore not a totally English decision.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
I am aware of that. Simply pointing out the uneven playing field now that Scotland and Wales have their own assemblies. They get to vote on things that have effect on England while saying we should not have a say in what effects them.
This makes absolutely no sense at all?

The debate was who should get to vote in the UK parliamentary elections. The Scottish and Welsh stances was that 16 and 17 years olds should be allowed - that they are eligible in their parliamentary elections is irrelevant to the discussion.

They are debating on behalf of their 16 and 17 year olds that they represent to be allowed to vote in the UK GE. In the same way that each of the english constituency MPs are there to represent the interests of the 16 and 17 year olds in their constituencies.

The capacity for 16 and 17 years olds to vote in their parliamentary elections has no impact on England, as their scope is only within the remit of their devolved powers.

lo36789
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:02 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:51 am
First topic of the devolution, How and when are they going to repay the investment made by England when the Bank of Scotland went pop?
Nothing less than blackmail. (We are the minority, but you must do as we tell you).
If I am not mistaken the UK government made a £900m profit on the resale of Bank of Scotland* (https://www.ft.com/content/c9214452-3a5 ... 1cc67cfeec)

*Bank of Scotland is part of HBOS which is in turn part of Lloyds Banking Group

If you mean Royal Bank of Scotland. I am not sure that the governments intervention was actually given to the Scottish government as something they are obliged to return. The vast majority of the RBS business which benefitted is actually in England - the legal entity controlling the UK personal bank NatWest Holdings is registered to Bishopsgate, London. The population of the UK who would have been impacted by a collapse of RBSG would have been predominantely south of the border.

Beyond that the bail out was not an investment "made by England" it was one made by the UKFI (note UK not England).

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