Democracy under threat.

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EDJOHNS
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:46 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:18 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:30 pm
So, come on remainders, how to we re-unite the country is you get your way? So far all I have seen is basically to brush it under the carpet and try to forget it ever happened. That certainly won't work.
There is no unity. The brexit vote was 52/48 which shows we are quite polarised in opinion. You need a minimum of 50 people in a room before you can get a majority opinion.

Economic prosperity is perhaps the only thing I can see that would resolve anything...as at least there is a chance people can enjoy their lives.

Im not sure what you read or watch but brexit is the most prominent issue that exists. Who is telling you that it is being swept under the carpet or ignored?
Yet again you are twisting what I said. You seem to try to do that so often. How about you go back and answer the question asked, at which point you may understand what I said.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:15 pm

Re-unite suggests unity ever existed.

I am not sure it did and I did answer economic prosperity - but I don’t see how we obtain that with any certainty under any outcome.

Basically in a 52/48 vote there is no outcome where circa 50% of people aren’t happy.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:01 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:27 pm
Predictions (not the Darlo will beat Man Utd 6-0 type), and more-so Forecasts, are methods of using all the available information, data, facts, rules, trends, modelling, etc., in order to come to conclusions on outcomes for future events. We all do this in our own lives, it doesn’t mean it’s guesswork. If these methods are invalid as being suggested, then a huge amount of people across the world must be stealing a living.
In respect of Brexit there are many areas of fact, one of which unequivocally adversely affects this country. If we leave with No Deal we’ll be worse off - and we’ll be worse off because we’ll lose access to frictionless and free trade with 27 of our nearest neighbours because we can no longer reap the benefits of membership, it’s just a plain fact. We’ll also be paying tariffs on tens of thousands of our products exported to the EU and rest of the world, some sector tariffs are huge such as beef and lamb, others like cars are +10%. We have no control over these tariffs on our exports under WTO. We also can’t “take back control from the WTO”, either!
These aren’t predictions or forecasts, they’re just a fact of being outside a mutual group under WTO rules, but they do add much weight to those forecasts which say overall No Deal will be disastrous. Can anyone forecast the exact costs? No, of course not, but it doesn’t make the overall forecast conclusion incorrect.
To state predictions and / or forecasts are “guesswork” really baffles me.
You can't call a prediction a "fact", that's just dishonest. Predictions may eventually turn out to be accurate but throwing words around like "fact", and definitive statements like "we will be worse off" or “No Deal will be disastrous” is misleading.

If you want to believe them, that’s up to you, but don’t try and paint them as something they’re not.

People also have agendas so you can't always trust what they say, and this isn't all about economics. There are other factors at play here which I'm sure you're aware of. If the EU was nothing more than a trading bloc then this would be an entirely different debate.

EDJOHNS has done a good job on the economics so I’ll leave it at that, plus Remain fear-mongering predictions tend to collapse once you put them under any serious scrutiny.
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:27 pm
The EU Army rears it’s head again! Veto! We have a veto - and the veto can’t be taken away from us because we’ll . . . veto it! No, we wouldn’t have to join the Euro or Schengen because we have legally binding agreements with the EU which only U.K. can amend.
Yet we DO have to abide by EU laws, which are controlled by unelected commissioners. If UK politicians do something we don't like, we can vote them out. We have no control over the EU upper echelon as the EU is totally anti-democratic (I've mentioned this before, you don't care).

The only power we truly have is to leave, and even that is proving to be impossible.
QuakerPete wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:27 pm
As for democracy, it’s a process not an event. No-one in their own lives decides a course of action, finds out new information later on to cast doubt on their initial decision (for example, the good deal initially promised turned out to be food and medicines shortages instead), but then still proceed with it even if they had a better alternative. That’s just not critical thinking of any kind and certainly not a requirement for democracy.
We haven't even left the EU yet. It's been 3 years and my democratic vote has not been carried out. It is also being thwarted by Remainers every step of the way using every tactic in the book. Every dirty tactic you can think of to stop Brexit from happening is being used to overturn a democratic result, yet WE’RE the ones being called undemocratic, and the Conservatives are the ones being accused of staging a coup etc. What a joke.

This is nothing to do with democracy. It is a blatant attempt to overturn a result which didn't go your way, which by the way is something the EU do repeatedly (I've mentioned this before, again you don't care).

I educated myself before the original referendum so I could make as informed a decision as possible, as I hope everyone did, and decided from that to vote Leave. Nothing has changed since (quite literally, we’re still in the bloody EU), so stop pretending otherwise.

I heard all this BEFORE I voted to leave, you aren't presenting new information, it's just the same tired arguments. The difference now is that we’ve had the vote and Leave won.

Before talk of any further votes, the original vote needs to honoured, end of story. THEN, and only THEN, will I hear talk of "democracy being an ongoing process".

1 - Where have I made a prediction and then called it a fact? If you mean leaving the EU under No Deal will make us poorer, that’s just a fact - I’ve explained about tariffs on our exported goods to EU and rest of the world. There’s also all the non-tariff barriers that go with WTO which add costs. If you can provide some actual evidence that these tariffs and accompanying evidence won’t make us worse off, then by all means produce it. Or produce facts and evidence that we’ll be either better off or no worse off with No Deal? Otherwise it’s just opinion - tea leaves really. At least debunk my statement with evidence not soundbites.
2 - We abide by EU laws that the UK has played a full part in devising. You continually refuse to accept that we have significant influence, but that we are somehow subservient to the EU and have rules imposed upon us - not true!. With an organisation of 28 sovereign states, are you really suggesting that heads of government have no say in the appointing of commissioners? Just how would electing each commissioner work? We don’t elect significant numbers of political workers of various kinds in the UK but most people don’t seem to find an issue with that for some reason.
3 - As for the economic answers by EDJOHNS, if you mean “they need us more than we need them” or “the German car makers need us” - it’s a theory, but it doesn’t translate into anything like with EU’s current way of thinking - all the signs being the EU’s Single Market is more important than stopping No Deal - if they have to deal with those alternatives. And the lazy, unsupported “fear-mongering predictions”? - please, by all means, debunk tariffs and non-tariff barriers under No Deal, but let’s have some evidence?
4 - Likewise, not taking lessons on democracy from those who are aware of the illegalities and fraud during the referendum. And also the outstanding criminal investigations into Leave still on-going. What kind of democrat wishes to ignore criminal activities and potential further criminal activities to achieve their aims? The criminal overspend by Leave, the illegal harvesting of personal data via Facebook to target to micro-target those people. What would the fall-out for this country be, for example, if the £8m loan by Arron Banks was found to come from an illegal source? Where would your democracy be then? The truly good thing about real democracy is one person can’t set the boundaries and restrictions for anyone else. A result doesn’t have to be “honoured” or accepted by others if they fundamentally disagree with it, with the way it was achieved and with the way they believe it will have a negative impact on this country. They don’t have to “wait their turn” in the democratic queue under some kind of gentleman’s agreement.
5 - You haven’t cornered the market in caring, I’m not here to change your mind


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Fatty eats roadkill » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:24 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:36 pm
The political map in the North especially the North East could be very different after the next GE. I wouldn't be surprised if the Conservative's win a whole host of former Labour safe seats.
The local Conservative candidate doesn’t even know the constituency boundaries or that the Farmers Auction Market is in Clifton Road whilst he makes great plays about our MP raising issues regards livestock in Parliamentary debates. He also posts videos of himself not wearing PPE whilst trying to use power tools in a place of work. Glad he fills you with confidence, I’m yet to be convinced.
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:22 am

Do you remainders want to drop the % of your doom and gloom a few notches. Or has he now started lying or being bought off?

https://news.sky.com/story/bank-no-deal ... mP8Fd7w59I

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:17 pm

EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:22 am
Do you remainders want to drop the % of your doom and gloom a few notches. Or has he now started lying or being bought off?

https://news.sky.com/story/bank-no-deal ... mP8Fd7w59I
Here...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_of_Uncertainty

Lets not kid ourselves though "not as bad" is still not "no longer bad".

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:20 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:17 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:22 am
Do you remainders want to drop the % of your doom and gloom a few notches. Or has he now started lying or being bought off?

https://news.sky.com/story/bank-no-deal ... mP8Fd7w59I
Here...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_of_Uncertainty

Lets not kid ourselves though "not as bad" is still not "no longer bad".
You know full well I have always said it will be hard at first, and I have said often enough I would have preferred a deal to no deal.I have always believed the ones giving the doom and gloom were taking things to the N'th degree to try to change peoples minds about leaving.

I have got way past worrying about being called a racist, but I have said for many years the Germans lost 2 wars with bullets but they are wining the 3rd with words and money.

As a proud Yorkshireman I want to see central government give more autonomy to the counties/districts in local matters so long as they stay within budget. It would be strange if I were in favour of the national government handing off more and more of our national rights to a "higher" body.
What may be right for some members is not necessarily right for all members, and the Euro proves that beyond any doubt whatever as it has driven a number of countries to the brink of bankruptcy.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:21 pm

This whole situation is a joke.

We're constantly being lectured on democracy whilst every attempt possible is being made to overturn the democratic result from 2016. Remainers have taken control of parliament (yet Johnson is accused of staging a coup), sabotaged our bargaining power by attempting to stop No Deal (whatever happened to No Deal is better than a bad deal?), constant court attempts are being made over every daft little thing regardless of whether they're illegal or not: if there's a chance it could be, and it could stop Brexit, then a legal challenge is being made, the (re)mainstream media are horrifically biased and repeatedly try to defame the character of certain people every chance they get (a bit like with Trump in the USA), and despite constant calls for a general election and a people's vote (which is simply a second referendum dressed up in fancy words) when a general election is put forward by Johnson, they all run scared, and are therefore now propping up a Conservative government (whatever happened to "putting it back to the people" eh?)

They say it's because they want an extension first before a general election (although initially it was because they wanted it enshrined in law first, they can't make their bloody minds up this lot) as Boris may gain a majority and then leave on 31 October without a deal. But if that's in his manifesto, and that's what the people vote for, isn't that how democracy works?

But no, apparently all Remain voters and politicians know exactly why all Leave voters voted the way they did, like they're some kind of mind-readers. They also seem to know our opinion on No Deal, and everything else.

They also apparently know better than us. Our vote in 2016 was either wrong or misguided, but it definitely didn't count. Rather than "putting it back to the people" with a general election, they know better than us, and what we want.

Furthermore, I'm still having to listen to the same arguments as before the 2016 result. This despite Leave winning and us not even leaving the EU yet.

And of course Boris may now be forced by Remainers to delay Brexit yet again. As I said before, this is nothing to do with democracy, it's just an underhand way of overturning a vote which turned out "wrong".

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:31 pm

lo36789 wrote:
EDJOHNS wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:22 am
Do you remainders want to drop the % of your doom and gloom a few notches. Or has he now started lying or being bought off?

https://news.sky.com/story/bank-no-deal ... mP8Fd7w59I
Here...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_of_Uncertainty

Lets not kid ourselves though "not as bad" is still not "no longer bad".
And still a long way from “same as” or “even better than”!
Someone starting to believe in “experts”?


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Henley » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:11 pm

Can’t be arsed to read the usual guff above from the Remoaners but thought I’d share this classic from Jenny Chapman demanding a General Election days after she voted against one earlier this week 🙄

https://twitter.com/darlocons/status/11 ... 09601?s=21

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by Darlo_Pete » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:22 pm

Henley wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:11 pm
Can’t be arsed to read the usual guff above from the Remoaners but thought I’d share this classic from Jenny Chapman demanding a General Election days after she voted against one earlier this week 🙄

https://twitter.com/darlocons/status/11 ... 09601?s=21
I'm surprised she's demanding a General Election, as the sooner the election, the sooner she'll have to look for a new job, haha.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:18 pm

“Remoaners” the sure fire way to sound like an 8 year old...it is genuinely like school yard name calling.

But if we are playing “what did the politician say” this was an interesting one from one of the leaders of the leave campaign.

“we didn’t vote to leave without a deal. That wasn’t the message of the campaign I helped lead. During that campaign, we said we should do a deal with the EU and be part of the network of free trade deals that covers all Europe, from Iceland to Turkey.

"Leaving without a deal on March 29 would not honour that commitment. It would undoubtedly cause economic turbulence. Almost everyone in this debate accepts that."

If my maths is right if at least 4 in 100 people who voted for leave were voting in line with what the leave campaign were campaigning for (see above for confirmation from one of the leaders) then the majority has suddenly gone.

FWIW it’s great that you lot all voted for no deal - but you speak no more for all the leave voters than anyone does.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:42 am

lo36789 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:18 pm
“Remoaners” the sure fire way to sound like an 8 year old...it is genuinely like school yard name calling.

But if we are playing “what did the politician say” this was an interesting one from one of the leaders of the leave campaign.

“we didn’t vote to leave without a deal. That wasn’t the message of the campaign I helped lead. During that campaign, we said we should do a deal with the EU and be part of the network of free trade deals that covers all Europe, from Iceland to Turkey.

"Leaving without a deal on March 29 would not honour that commitment. It would undoubtedly cause economic turbulence. Almost everyone in this debate accepts that."

If my maths is right if at least 4 in 100 people who voted for leave were voting in line with what the leave campaign were campaigning for (see above for confirmation from one of the leaders) then the majority has suddenly gone.

FWIW it’s great that you lot all voted for no deal - but you speak no more for all the leave voters than anyone does.
What were the Leave campaign campaigning for then? Just sounds like another version of "you didn't know what you were voting for" to me.

I'm not thick, I did know what I was voting for, I can think for myself.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lifetime darlo fan » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:26 am

As someone who voted remain in 2016 I'm appalled at the way parliament haven't listened to the people and agreed to take the country out of the EU. I'm so annoyed about it all that if there ever is another referendum then I'd actually now vote to leave.

Politics have ruined this country. Everyone is divided and it appears no ones views are respected anymore.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:17 am

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:42 am
What were the Leave campaign campaigning for then? Just sounds like another version of "you didn't know what you were voting for" to me.

I'm not thick, I did know what I was voting for, I can think for myself.
Don’t ask me - I am just quoting the leader of the campaign - see the last 3 years as the attempts by parliament to answer that question.

Point is the leader of the campaign has said that their vote was not to leave the EU without a deal. David Davis and Farage both said similar that getting deals with the EU was obviously what would happen and it would be the easiest negotiation ever conducted.

No, not at all. I am saying that there everyone knew what they wanted, the problem was that leave captured a diverse number of outcomes.

It goes back to a group “I want pizza tonight”, “I want Indian”, “I want a Chinese”...they all know exactly what they want and when they vote for “takeaway” over “cook at home” they don’t not know what they voted for...but do they know what everyone else who voted for that option voted for?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ups-brexit

As there are no official votes you can only use polls - which aren’t exactly proving to be accurate recently.

The suggestion from this is that of the brexit voters only 33% would be happy with a no deal scenario. If you extrapolate that to the population that become what 17% of the population voted for leave accepting that no deal would be the outcome.

And that is the will of the majority being implemented?

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:07 am

lo36789 wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:17 am
DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:42 am
What were the Leave campaign campaigning for then? Just sounds like another version of "you didn't know what you were voting for" to me.

I'm not thick, I did know what I was voting for, I can think for myself.
Don’t ask me - I am just quoting the leader of the campaign - see the last 3 years as the attempts by parliament to answer that question.

Point is the leader of the campaign has said that their vote was not to leave the EU without a deal. David Davis and Farage both said similar that getting deals with the EU was obviously what would happen and it would be the easiest negotiation ever conducted.

No, not at all. I am saying that there everyone knew what they wanted, the problem was that leave captured a diverse number of outcomes.

It goes back to a group “I want pizza tonight”, “I want Indian”, “I want a Chinese”...they all know exactly what they want and when they vote for “takeaway” over “cook at home” they don’t not know what they voted for...but do they know what everyone else who voted for that option voted for?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ups-brexit

As there are no official votes you can only use polls - which aren’t exactly proving to be accurate recently.

The suggestion from this is that of the brexit voters only 33% would be happy with a no deal scenario. If you extrapolate that to the population that become what 17% of the population voted for leave accepting that no deal would be the outcome.

And that is the will of the majority being implemented?
It is always easy to play with numbers to get what you want them to show. The comment that 17% of the population voted to leave is misleading for the simple reason those that did not get of their backsides to vote either way really have no right whatever getting involved. Of those that did bother 52% voted leave. Lets stick with those who bothered, either way.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:43 am

That isn’t what I or the figures said...at all.

Of the population who voted leave (obviously they didn’t ask all 52% - as I say we don’t have the data you have to base it on polls) 33% of those people would be happy with an exit which was no deal.

If you assume that the 48% remain voters didn’t want an exit with no deal...that then tells you of the population who voted 17% voted happy to have a no deal outcome.

Honestly that those speaking here are within that 33% - I am not saying you are not. So the idea of no deal you are thinking “well that is what I voted for” - you are ignoring potentially 2/3rd of leave voters who did not vote thinking that would be the outcome.

This wasn’t helped by the fact that the leave campaign wasn’t formed on the premise of a no deal outcome.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:22 am

lo36789 wrote:That isn’t what I or the figures said...at all.

Of the population who voted leave (obviously they didn’t ask all 52% - as I say we don’t have the data you have to base it on polls) 33% of those people would be happy with an exit which was no deal.

If you assume that the 48% remain voters didn’t want an exit with no deal...that then tells you of the population who voted 17% voted happy to have a no deal outcome.

Honestly that those speaking here are within that 33% - I am not saying you are not. So the idea of no deal you are thinking “well that is what I voted for” - you are ignoring potentially 2/3rd of leave voters who did not vote thinking that would be the outcome.

This wasn’t helped by the fact that the leave campaign wasn’t formed on the premise of a no deal outcome.
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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:46 am

lo36789 wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:43 am
That isn’t what I or the figures said...at all.

Of the population who voted leave (obviously they didn’t ask all 52% - as I say we don’t have the data you have to base it on polls) 33% of those people would be happy with an exit which was no deal.

If you assume that the 48% remain voters didn’t want an exit with no deal...that then tells you of the population who voted 17% voted happy to have a no deal outcome.

Honestly that those speaking here are within that 33% - I am not saying you are not. So the idea of no deal you are thinking “well that is what I voted for” - you are ignoring potentially 2/3rd of leave voters who did not vote thinking that would be the outcome.

This wasn’t helped by the fact that the leave campaign wasn’t formed on the premise of a no deal outcome.
So Remain really won after all, right? "Proper" democracy would actually be to Remain in the EU? Give me a break. I've heard this one already as well: if you just change this figure, and that figure, then as if by magic the majority disappears, or Remain wins, or upholding the democratic result would in fact be undemocratic. So that means we should Remain in the EU? Right?

All you can extrapolate from the initial vote is that the majority voted to leave the EU, and that's it. We didn't vote for a deal, we didn't vote for no deal, we voted to leave, and the other side voted to remain. Your manipulation of the figures is dishonest, based on faulty information, and makes way too many assumptions.

And again, your entire point is a repeat of the "Leave voters didn't know what they voted for/were too thick to fully understand/were manipulated into voting a certain way". I'm bloody sick of hearing that to be honest.

Leaving without a deal was definitely on the table at the time. I can't speak for others (unlike Remain voters: apparently they know exactly what all Leave voters want, and how they think, and why they voted) but I would have preferred a deal, however, I was prepared for no deal. I actually expected the EU to play hard ball and that we'd end up with no deal, and that's something I'm OK with now, and was OK with at the time. I expected a poor deal as then everyone can say "look at how terrible this deal is, shouldn't we just Remain now then? Right? Right?" Which, of course, is exactly what's happening.

To reiterate: a no deal Brexit was definitely referred to at the time, and was part of my reasoning when I voted. Either way, if you take it off the table then we're never going to get a good deal anyways. And if it's on the table, then it's a possible eventuality.

Another day, another dirty underhand attempt at overturning a democratic result.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:05 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:46 am
Leaving without a deal was definitely on the table at the time.
It was - I remember that a lot of the "remain" campaigning before the vote was based around a no deal scenario.

To say people didn't understand this at the time is ridiculous.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:07 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:43 am
That isn’t what I or the figures said...at all.

Of the population who voted leave (obviously they didn’t ask all 52% - as I say we don’t have the data you have to base it on polls) 33% of those people would be happy with an exit which was no deal.

If you assume that the 48% remain voters didn’t want an exit with no deal...that then tells you of the population who voted 17% voted happy to have a no deal outcome.

Honestly that those speaking here are within that 33% - I am not saying you are not. So the idea of no deal you are thinking “well that is what I voted for” - you are ignoring potentially 2/3rd of leave voters who did not vote thinking that would be the outcome.

This wasn’t helped by the fact that the leave campaign wasn’t formed on the premise of a no deal outcome.
So Remain really won after all, right? "Proper" democracy would actually be to Remain in the EU? Give me a break. I've heard this one already as well: if you just change this figure, and that figure, then as if by magic the majority disappears, or Remain wins, or upholding the democratic result would in fact be undemocratic. So that means we should Remain in the EU? Right?

All you can extrapolate from the initial vote is that the majority voted to leave the EU, and that's it. We didn't vote for a deal, we didn't vote for no deal, we voted to leave, and the other side voted to remain. Your manipulation of the figures is dishonest, based on faulty information, and makes way too many assumptions.

And again, your entire point is a repeat of the "Leave voters didn't know what they voted for/were too thick to fully understand/were manipulated into voting a certain way". I'm bloody sick of hearing that to be honest.

Leaving without a deal was definitely on the table at the time. I can't speak for others (unlike Remain voters: apparently they know exactly what all Leave voters want, and how they think, and why they voted) but I would have preferred a deal, however, I was prepared for no deal. I actually expected the EU to play hard ball and that we'd end up with no deal, and that's something I'm OK with now, and was OK with at the time. I expected a poor deal as then everyone can say "look at how terrible this deal is, shouldn't we just Remain now then? Right? Right?" Which, of course, is exactly what's happening.

To reiterate: a no deal Brexit was definitely referred to at the time, and was part of my reasoning when I voted. Either way, if you take it off the table then we're never going to get a good deal anyways. And if it's on the table, then it's a possible eventuality.

Another day, another dirty underhand attempt at overturning a democratic result.
Which Leave organisations or major Leave individuals actively promoted (referred to) No Deal as their option prior to the 2016 referendum?


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:44 pm

QuakerPete wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:07 pm
Which Leave organisations or major Leave individuals actively promoted (referred to) No Deal as their option prior to the 2016 referendum?
It took me 5 minutes to find this quote from Nigel Farage on 3 June 2016:

“Even if our friends in France and Italy decide to cut off their noses to spite their faces… it will be better than the rotten deal we have now.”

And on 8 June 2016, he said:

“...no deal is better than the rotten deal that we’ve got at the moment.”

The Brexit Referendum was on 23 June 2016.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by EDJOHNS » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:55 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:46 am
lo36789 wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:43 am
That isn’t what I or the figures said...at all.

Of the population who voted leave (obviously they didn’t ask all 52% - as I say we don’t have the data you have to base it on polls) 33% of those people would be happy with an exit which was no deal.

If you assume that the 48% remain voters didn’t want an exit with no deal...that then tells you of the population who voted 17% voted happy to have a no deal outcome.

Honestly that those speaking here are within that 33% - I am not saying you are not. So the idea of no deal you are thinking “well that is what I voted for” - you are ignoring potentially 2/3rd of leave voters who did not vote thinking that would be the outcome.

This wasn’t helped by the fact that the leave campaign wasn’t formed on the premise of a no deal outcome.
So Remain really won after all, right? "Proper" democracy would actually be to Remain in the EU? Give me a break. I've heard this one already as well: if you just change this figure, and that figure, then as if by magic the majority disappears, or Remain wins, or upholding the democratic result would in fact be undemocratic. So that means we should Remain in the EU? Right?

All you can extrapolate from the initial vote is that the majority voted to leave the EU, and that's it. We didn't vote for a deal, we didn't vote for no deal, we voted to leave, and the other side voted to remain. Your manipulation of the figures is dishonest, based on faulty information, and makes way too many assumptions.

And again, your entire point is a repeat of the "Leave voters didn't know what they voted for/were too thick to fully understand/were manipulated into voting a certain way". I'm bloody sick of hearing that to be honest.

Leaving without a deal was definitely on the table at the time. I can't speak for others (unlike Remain voters: apparently they know exactly what all Leave voters want, and how they think, and why they voted) but I would have preferred a deal, however, I was prepared for no deal. I actually expected the EU to play hard ball and that we'd end up with no deal, and that's something I'm OK with now, and was OK with at the time. I expected a poor deal as then everyone can say "look at how terrible this deal is, shouldn't we just Remain now then? Right? Right?" Which, of course, is exactly what's happening.

To reiterate: a no deal Brexit was definitely referred to at the time, and was part of my reasoning when I voted. Either way, if you take it off the table then we're never going to get a good deal anyways. And if it's on the table, then it's a possible eventuality.

Another day, another dirty underhand attempt at overturning a democratic result.
More or less what I said using a lot more words. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I never had a problem leaving with no deal, what I can not fathom is the stupidity of taking it away from those who have to deal with getting us out.
The EU have said from day 1 that a no deal will be a disaster for the EU as well as us, ok, so we will take it off the table and give Boris bugger all to use as leverage. Having done that, why should the EU offer any better deal than they have at present? I am damned sure if someone came to threaten me and I knew they were bluffing from day 1 I would just say "Carry on."

But hey, we who want to leave are brain dead morons who don't have a clue what we are on about. :sick: :sick: :sick:

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:58 pm

Not sure how many times...

You knew what you voted for - everyone knew what they were voting for.

What we don’t know is whether the route we end up with is what the majority (or most) people actually wanted.

By the same token. You have to remember that May’s deal was not voted in by Johnson because that isn’t what people voted for (well it meant we left the EU? - so how can it not have been?).

As I say I fully understand everyone who has commented here is comfortable with no deal and that is what they voted for etc. etc.

I am just intrigued as to how you know hand on heart - given one of the leaders of the leave campaign has said “this isn’t what leave is” that everybody in your 52% wanted this outcome also - how can you say that for sure?

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:13 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:
QuakerPete wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:07 pm
Which Leave organisations or major Leave individuals actively promoted (referred to) No Deal as their option prior to the 2016 referendum?
It took me 5 minutes to find this quote from Nigel Farage on 3 June 2016:

“Even if our friends in France and Italy decide to cut off their noses to spite their faces… it will be better than the rotten deal we have now.”

And on 8 June 2016, he said:

“...no deal is better than the rotten deal that we’ve got at the moment.”

The Brexit Referendum was on 23 June 2016.
Farage also said in this interview with Andrew Marr on Nov 1, 2015, that we can get a much better deal than Norway (EEA member part of the Single Market and contributor without any say in EU rules) because we’re a much bigger country.
And your quotes really weren’t advocating or promoting No Deal, they were just comparing it with the existing deal - not the same thing.
It’s really confusing this No Deal stuff
https://youtu.be/v5UhCDIwvUc


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:12 pm

FWIW...were it known what the deal was then there is actually a solid argument that it would take votes from remain.

As we all know the whole debate was spun on “will we get a deal from the EU if we leave.”

Leave said we would, so could have inspired voters to go leave.

Remain said we wouldn’t, which by the same token would have lead to remain votes.

So leave with a deal (perhaps even May’s deal) could be the preference of the majority but we will never know - instead we are heading for an outcome which we don’t know is the will of the majority or that of the vocal minority.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:11 pm

By hook or by crook springs to mind here. Didn't win the vote? No problem, just claim it was invalid or something.

A majority voted to leave the EU in 2016. Despite what you keep saying, the possibility of No Deal WAS discussed and debated at the time, as shown in my previous post.

This vote wasn't to leave with a deal, or without a deal, but just to leave. Any further inference into this is purely guesswork. For example, I could say that vote Remain's hysterical and over-the-top fear mongering led to a smaller majority for Leave as it scared people into voting Remain. See, we can both play that game.

Furthermore, leaving with no deal is implicit in the fact that to get a good deal, the real possibility of walking away has to be an option, and Theresa May's manifesto was built around this exact idea. Therefore it was always a possibility, yet people still voted to leave. If you rule out No Deal then you have no bargaining chip, and if it's on the table, it's a definite possibility.

And you're oversimplifying the Leave campaign's message. There was more to it than economics, and way more to it than getting a deal from the EU. The economic message though was more about doing trade deals around the world as we'd have the freedom to do so but, just to reiterate, a No Deal scenario was discussed and debated at the time, from both sides. The default position of article 50 is to leave with or without a deal as well.

Plus as I said before, I had a feeling the EU would give us a bad deal as the threat of us truly walking away was never there under May, simply so they, and Remainers, could play the "I told you so" game, which is what's happening now. A different PM may have gotten us a better deal.

I feel like I'm repeating myself now, but again, your entire argument is yet another version of "Leave voters didn't know what they voted for/were too thick to fully understand/were manipulated into voting a certain way". Change the bloody record.

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by lo36789 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:29 am

Little point in debating it further, by all means try and degrade the argument by suggesting I was being offensive but at no point have I said that.

I simply see a distinction between "you don't know what you voted for" versus "there were multiple potential outcomes as a result of what you voted for"

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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by QuakerPete » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:41 pm

DarloOnTheUp wrote:By hook or by crook springs to mind here. Didn't win the vote? No problem, just claim it was invalid or something.

A majority voted to leave the EU in 2016. Despite what you keep saying, the possibility of No Deal WAS discussed and debated at the time, as shown in my previous post.

This vote wasn't to leave with a deal, or without a deal, but just to leave. Any further inference into this is purely guesswork. For example, I could say that vote Remain's hysterical and over-the-top fear mongering led to a smaller majority for Leave as it scared people into voting Remain. See, we can both play that game.

Furthermore, leaving with no deal is implicit in the fact that to get a good deal, the real possibility of walking away has to be an option, and Theresa May's manifesto was built around this exact idea. Therefore it was always a possibility, yet people still voted to leave. If you rule out No Deal then you have no bargaining chip, and if it's on the table, it's a definite possibility.

And you're oversimplifying the Leave campaign's message. There was more to it than economics, and way more to it than getting a deal from the EU. The economic message though was more about doing trade deals around the world as we'd have the freedom to do so but, just to reiterate, a No Deal scenario was discussed and debated at the time, from both sides. The default position of article 50 is to leave with or without a deal as well.

Plus as I said before, I had a feeling the EU would give us a bad deal as the threat of us truly walking away was never there under May, simply so they, and Remainers, could play the "I told you so" game, which is what's happening now. A different PM may have gotten us a better deal.

I feel like I'm repeating myself now, but again, your entire argument is yet another version of "Leave voters didn't know what they voted for/were too thick to fully understand/were manipulated into voting a certain way". Change the bloody record.
Yes, I remember No Deal being discussed on many occasions - by Remainers and not by Leavers promoting it in any way as their preferred choice . . . to be met each time with the banal “Project Fear”.
And yet, here we are, with the Tories not making any attempt (according to the EU side) at presenting anything to discuss , in effect directing us to crash out.
And, just for your information, here’s Google trend about “No Deal” on their search engine over the past 4 years - the spike on No Deal searches started in late 2018, not 2016. It was never in the public consciousness until then.
[IMG]//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201909 ... 18b153.jpg[/IMG]


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Re: Democracy under threat.

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:42 pm

"Crash out" - you really do love your loaded words and phrases.

I know what you're both trying to do as well: you're trying to cast doubt on the 2016 vote by any means necessary, so that, as if by magic, Leave didn't really win after all, or that the vote didn't really count. Then, again as if by magic, the true democratic course of action is to Remain! Wow, how did that happen? As mentioned about twenty times already, the majority voted to leave the EU, which we are yet to do. Any further inference into that is purely guesswork.

But I'm just repeating myself now. No deal was mentioned during the referendum as a possible eventuality (the quote by Nigel Farage clearly states that he was aware of it, that he preferred it to staying in the EU, and he certainly wasn't hiding it. I knew that any quote I provided wouldn't be good enough though, and you'd twist it to suit). It was also implicit in the fact that you need No Deal on the table to get a good deal, and if it's on the table, it's a possibility. Additionally, there was more to the vote than economics, and way more to it than the deal with the EU.

It doesn't matter if it was anyone's preferred choice. It wasn't my preferred choice, but it was something I was aware of and have always preferred over staying in the EU, and have always preferred to a bad deal from the EU. Even though it wasn't my number one choice, I still voted Leave, and would vote Leave again.

I also stick to the opinion that a different PM, one who was truly committed to leaving, and was prepared to walk away if given a bad deal, would have gotten us a better deal than May. But to be ready to walk away at all, you have to be ready to accept no deal whatsoever, otherwise you're just bluffing.

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