EU Referendum

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lo36789
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:25 pm

I said if the EU are clever that's what they would do...not that they will as I expect we will end up with a free trade (people/goods/services) and we will pay to get into it.

You think people won't move if their job moves? Half my management team are Australian because their job moved from Australia. My previous Senior team were majority Dutch. Guys that I went to uni with have moved to the US, Germany, China and Australia for work.

Why do people come to the UK? For jobs. Why will people leave the UK? For jobs. If the jobs move the people will move too that is an absolute guarantee.

Henley out of interest how would you feel if we left the EU and ended up in a free movement of people deal with the EEA?

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Darlogramps » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:34 pm

lo36789 wrote:I said if the EU are clever that's what they would do...not that they will as I expect we will end up with a free trade (people/goods/services) and we will pay to get into it.
So you don't think the EU will be clever, and you thought you'd bring up the hollowing out of the UK economy anyway, even though you don't think it'll happen.

That's pretty much the definition of scaremongering, despite you earlier criticising the Leave campaign for ermmm.....scaremongering.

You're just full of contradictions. How long does it take you to put on your big red nose, bright white make-up and oversized shoes each morning?
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:16 pm

My point is simple. Our status as the 5th biggest economy is not a god given right - it can be eroded very, very quickly if things aren't sorted out soon.

In all honesty I am a bit sick of the rhetoric that we have too many immigrant - it is the immigrants, this critical resource - which powers our service driven economy.

We live in a world where movement of resources and people can be rapid. I really worry that many leave folk are cutting their nose to spite their face with the immigration argument.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:52 pm

lo36789 wrote:In all honesty I am a bit sick of the rhetoric that we have too many immigrant - it is the immigrants, this critical resource - which powers our service driven economy.
In all honesty I am a bit sick of the rhetoric that wanting to control our immigration is somehow anti immigration or anti immigrants. They can still come over to contribute and work - it's just that we can control it, the government WE ELECT can control it to suit the wishes of the people/us.
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Henley
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:32 pm

I don't have an issue with immigrants but I do have an issue with uncontrolled immigration.

I have a greater issue with the fact that people can become naturalised UK citizens after only 5 years.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by liddle_4_ever » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:42 pm

To be honest I wish there'd be more control over immigration, as well, but I don't see any scenario when this would be possible without severely damaging our economy. Therefore, for me, the lesser of the two evils is the situation we currently find ourselves in, that's why I'm leaning towards stay (although my decision isn't firm).


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Re: EU Referendum

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:02 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
lo36789 wrote:In all honesty I am a bit sick of the rhetoric that we have too many immigrant - it is the immigrants, this critical resource - which powers our service driven economy.
In all honesty I am a bit sick of the rhetoric that wanting to control our immigration is somehow anti immigration or anti immigrants. They can still come over to contribute and work - it's just that we can control it, the government WE ELECT can control it to suit the wishes of the people/us.
I said the same thing about 5 pages ago and it obviously didn't sink in to lo's head.

Although I'm not sure why he brought this strawman argument up again, it doesn't really seem relevant.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:28 am

believer that the free market provides the right levers to control things. If there are jobs people will come - if there aren't they won't. If their 'home' has jobs they won't leave if it doesn't they will.

believer that a fair tax system puts the biggest burden on those with broadest shoulders, enabling those who require the biggest support give it but that in turn that multiplier effect means any investment in those 'at the bottom' ultimately benefits the benefactor in the long run.

The above reasons are woven into the argument regarding a better economic position, which is why I know my decision. As long as the UK continues to invest in maintaining our USPs we will keep a competitive position.

I can understand the sovereignty argument, ensuring all decisions which affect us (and the wider EU) are made by elected individuals. I think the challenge of "yeh but the House of Lords" is pretty weak.

That said I think there is an awful lot more democracy in the EU than is being portrayed. The UK hardly did itself any favours by electing a group of MEPs who don't want to be there! At all other tables it is our elected individuals who sit round the table - admittedly the UK public didn't necessarily elect them into their cabinet roles.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:43 am

Another poll:

Ipsos Mori

Leave 53% (+10)
Remain 47% (-10)

I'm starting to get a bit paranoid about these polls - I'm starting to think they're a fix to get Remainians out to vote - the swings are huge (even if I thought the last Ipsos Mori poll was a little high for Remain).

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:15 am

Henley wrote:Another poll:

Ipsos Mori

Leave 53% (+10)
Remain 47% (-10)

I'm starting to get a bit paranoid about these polls - I'm starting to think they're a fix to get Remainians out to vote - the swings are huge (even if I thought the last Ipsos Mori poll was a little high for Remain).
Don't get too paranoid like, there is no conspiracy. They are probably just testament to the fact that people still haven't made up their minds.

Agree though as an 'in' voter I am quite comfortable with the idea that remain is behind in polls. It should kick some people out of bed on the morning to vote, it feels not too dissimilar to the Scottish independence vote.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by joejaques » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:00 am

Forecast summary
Outlook for the UK over the next 6-30 days
UK Outlook for Monday 20 Jun 2016 to Wednesday 29 Jun 2016:
Cloud and outbreaks of rain will spread across most parts early next week, followed by a mixture of sunshine and showers. The remainder of the week will remain unsettled and often windy with bands of rain pushing east, these interspersed with brighter, though showery conditions. The heaviest rain and most frequent showers will be in the north and west and the best of any drier spells in the east and southeast. Into the weekend and following week it will remain generally unsettled with the most frequent spells of rain across northwestern parts and generally drier and brighter weather in the southeast. Temperatures will be generally around normal, with the warmest temperatures likely in the south.

I hope it pees down all day, then the Remaniacs will stay at home. I'l be out to vote leave even if there s a hurricane. :roll:
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:54 am

lo36789 wrote:
Henley wrote:Another poll:

Ipsos Mori

Leave 53% (+10)
Remain 47% (-10)

I'm starting to get a bit paranoid about these polls - I'm starting to think they're a fix to get Remainians out to vote - the swings are huge (even if I thought the last Ipsos Mori poll was a little high for Remain).
Don't get too paranoid like, there is no conspiracy. They are probably just testament to the fact that people still haven't made up their minds.

Agree though as an 'in' voter I am quite comfortable with the idea that remain is behind in polls. It should kick some people out of bed on the morning to vote, it feels not too dissimilar to the Scottish independence vote.
It's nothing like the Scottish referendum - see how few polls were led by 'Yes':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_p ... _2014#2014

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:58 am

how come the leave campaign got to have their Question Time voice on Wednesday and Remain have to wait until Sunday?

That is a whole 4 extra days of time that people get a chance to watch the Leave argument on catch up. It's clearly a fix and is just typical of the current media bias for leave.

;)

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by joejaques » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:47 am

lo36789 wrote:how come the leave campaign got to have their Question Time voice on Wednesday and Remain have to wait until Sunday?

That is a whole 4 extra days of time that people get a chance to watch the Leave argument on catch up. It's clearly a fix and is just typical of the current media bias for leave.

;)
I would have thought the absolute opposite, in that the Remaniacs get the final big TV slot closest to polling, giving them an advantage. :roll:
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:25 pm

joejaques wrote:
lo36789 wrote:how come the leave campaign got to have their Question Time voice on Wednesday and Remain have to wait until Sunday?

That is a whole 4 extra days of time that people get a chance to watch the Leave argument on catch up. It's clearly a fix and is just typical of the current media bias for leave.

;)
I would have thought the absolute opposite, in that the Remaniacs get the final big TV slot closest to polling, giving them an advantage. :roll:
Having seen Cameron's performance, I'm not sure it was an advantage to the Remainians.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:37 pm

Thought he was more convincing that Gove. My uni posted something earlier which was a lecture from one of my old lecturers.

https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLi ... 974024537/

think it's quite interesting be refutes claims from remain and leave but when all is said and done falls on the remain side.

It is a good listen/watch but I assume leave folk will dispute everything he says.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:49 pm

lo36789 wrote:Thought he was more convincing that Gove. My uni posted something earlier which was a lecture from one of my old lecturers.

https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLi ... 974024537/

think it's quite interesting be refutes claims from remain and leave but when all is said and done falls on the remain side.

It is a good listen/watch but I assume leave folk will dispute everything he says.
It doesn't matter what you or I think of Cameron's performance, it's what the undecideds think that matters.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:26 am

Henley wrote:Having seen Cameron's performance, I'm not sure it was an advantage to the Remainians.
Henley wrote:It doesn't matter what you or I think of Cameron's performance, it's what the undecideds think that matters.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Darlo_Pete » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:11 am

I find it amazing that stock markets around the world are so drastically affected by one or two polls. I guess it shows that we are still a world power.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:28 am

lo36789 wrote:
Henley wrote:Having seen Cameron's performance, I'm not sure it was an advantage to the Remainians.
Henley wrote:It doesn't matter what you or I think of Cameron's performance, it's what the undecideds think that matters.
Are you being deliberately thick lo?

Or do you not agree that undecideds choosing to stay in would be an advantage to Remain?
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:25 am

Darlogramps wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
Henley wrote:Having seen Cameron's performance, I'm not sure it was an advantage to the Remainians.
Henley wrote:It doesn't matter what you or I think of Cameron's performance, it's what the undecideds think that matters.
Are you being deliberately thick lo?

Or do you not agree that undecideds choosing to stay in would be an advantage to Remain?
It's not deliberate.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Hawkeye » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:30 am

lo36789 wrote:
Henley wrote:Having seen Cameron's performance, I'm not sure it was an advantage to the Remainians.
Henley wrote:It doesn't matter what you or I think of Cameron's performance, it's what the undecideds think that matters.
Just to confirm it's not the Brexiteers simply having a go because you disagree with them, I'm on the same side of the debate as you and don't get what you're trying to show here.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by grytters » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:32 am

lo36789 wrote:I said if the EU are clever that's what they would do...not that they will as I expect we will end up with a free trade (people/goods/services) and we will pay to get into it.

You think people won't move if their job moves? Half my management team are Australian because their job moved from Australia. My previous Senior team were majority Dutch. Guys that I went to uni with have moved to the US, Germany, China and Australia for work.

Why do people come to the UK? For jobs. Why will people leave the UK? For jobs. If the jobs move the people will move too that is an absolute guarantee.

Henley out of interest how would you feel if we left the EU and ended up in a free movement of people deal with the EEA?
Go to York and try telling the people who used to work for Terry's that.
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:43 am

My point is that I was just commenting on the performance of Cameron, in the same way that Henley was. I think that my thoughts on his performance being better than Gove's is as valid as Henley commenting on it not being an advantage to Remain.

My opinion on the matter was as valid as Henley's yet one is instantly rebuffed as "it doesn't matter".

It's hard to pinpoint root cause but from what I understand the momentum has switched again in polls. Was it Cameron's performance, the newly vocalised support from UK businesses or UKIP own goal that has been the driver?

Absolutely agree that it is the undecided voters who hold the key as it would seem there is a sufficient quantity of them with 4 days to go. If they were watching Cameron and Gove in order to assist their decision then felt the former was more impassioned and stronger on the benefits than the latter.

They are both peddling untruths and exaggerations mind. Regardless of the outcome it is surely concerning that the decisions of the nation is so un-informed.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:02 am

lo36789 wrote:My point is that I was just commenting on the performance of Cameron, in the same way that Henley was. I think that my thoughts on his performance being better than Gove's is as valid as Henley commenting on it not being an advantage to Remain.

My opinion on the matter was as valid as Henley's yet one is instantly rebuffed as "it doesn't matter".

It's hard to pinpoint root cause but from what I understand the momentum has switched again in polls. Was it Cameron's performance, the newly vocalised support from UK businesses or UKIP own goal that has been the driver?

Absolutely agree that it is the undecided voters who hold the key as it would seem there is a sufficient quantity of them with 4 days to go. If they were watching Cameron and Gove in order to assist their decision then felt the former was more impassioned and stronger on the benefits than the latter.

They are both peddling untruths and exaggerations mind. Regardless of the outcome it is surely concerning that the decisions of the nation is so un-informed.
It is the about turn in the polls that has excited the markets - Cameron's performance last night will be not a factor until new polls are undertaken.

For people like me, for whom the primary issue with the EU is our loss of full sovereignty, all the facts are out there.

I'm quite disappointed the Leave Campaign has not highlighted the sovereignty issue more. Hopefully, it'll play a bigger part this week. That and showing why the economic consequence of Brexit is insignificant.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:29 am

Henley wrote:That and showing why the economic consequence of Brexit is insignificant.
They'll have a job showing what nobody knows. They may be able to convince people of their belief and rationale but showing I doubt it.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:35 am

lo36789 wrote:
Henley wrote:That and showing why the economic consequence of Brexit is insignificant.
They'll have a job showing what nobody knows. They may be able to convince people of their belief and rationale but showing I doubt it.
No, they can show it. In exactly the same way the Remain campaign believe they show it.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:36 am

lo36789 wrote:They are both peddling untruths and exaggerations mind. Regardless of the outcome it is surely concerning that the decisions of the nation is so un-informed.
The quality of this campaign has been really disappointing.

The politicians on both sides have been treating us like stupid children, and it's not just what they say- it's what they don't say too.

Cameron last night banging on about the Australian immigration points system making their population bigger!! What he didn't say was that it's making their population bigger because they want it to be that way, because they are looking for a bigger population.

And on benefits, he made out that no benefits can be claimed in the first 6 months after arriving, but what he didn't say was that you can claim unemployment benefit after 3 months. I only picked up this fact by dredging iplayer for missed editions of the Andrew Neil show.

Both Question times (Gove and Cameron) in my mind have been too short, too shallow, and have never got going.
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:09 pm

Henley wrote:For people like me, for whom the primary issue with the EU is our loss of full sovereignty, all the facts are out there.
And yet there are academics in the field of EU law state that the UK and all other nations are absolutely sovereign states. That sovereignty should play absolutely no part in your decision (https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLi ... 974024537/)

Are the facts definitely out there, or are they just a version of the reality?

I am comfortable with my position and it is completely independent of immigration, sovereignty, economic factors. Collaborating closely with others, sharing and pooling resources to help those who are most in need, and where investment will produce the biggest returns is simply the right thing to do.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:41 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Henley wrote:For people like me, for whom the primary issue with the EU is our loss of full sovereignty, all the facts are out there.
And yet there are academics in the field of EU law state that the UK and all other nations are absolutely sovereign states. That sovereignty should play absolutely no part in your decision (https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLi ... 974024537/)

Are the facts definitely out there, or are they just a version of the reality?

I am comfortable with my position and it is completely independent of immigration, sovereignty, economic factors. Collaborating closely with others, sharing and pooling resources to help those who are most in need, and where investment will produce the biggest returns is simply the right thing to do.
We are sovereign states without full sovereignty. The EU holds sovereignty over the UK in many areas. We're only fully sovereign if we take it back. This is what the referendum is (or should be) about.

All the things you say about collaboration, etc. can be done with the UK outside of the EU. The fact you want to transfer funds to other nations is a completely separate discussion and comes across more like an extension of a socialist ideology which we all know is the real reason why lefties, as far as the EU is concerned, will abandon sovereignty/democracy when it doesn't give them the result they want. This is ironic when you consider most of the Eurosceptics on the continent are from the left.

What is immensely frustrating to me about this is that many people voting Remain have issues with the EU but have seemingly been brainwashed on the economics. Just look at it coldly - why should the UK not being in the EU (significantly) affect our economy. The answer is that it shouldn't be affected any more than Korea or Japan not being in the EU doesn't affect them.

Good news for the Leave campaign is that a lot of the UK has rain forecast for much of Thursday.

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