EU Referendum

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Darlogramps
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:16 pm

I love how the basis of Lo's arguments on the EU are formed on a couple of lectures from the educational powerhouse that is the University of Lincoln (the 56th best university in the UK, according to the Guardian's most recent guide).
I am comfortable with my position and it is completely independent of immigration, sovereignty, economic factors. Collaborating closely with others, sharing and pooling resources to help those who are most in need, and where investment will produce the biggest returns is simply the right thing to do.
See here's the thing, I don't believe the EU does any of these things. I don't believe they pool resources to help those in need. I don't believe they work collaboratively, or seek to maximise returns to help ALL member states.

Look at what's happened in Greece. Enforced austerity on a scale that makes Osborne's budget slashing look like mere tinkering. Riots in the street, mass unemployment, non-existent job prospects for the country's young people. There's also been a spike in suicide rates.

All this to help protect the Euro from plummeting. How is this "working collaboratively"? Where's the benefit to these people from the EU?

And it's not just Greece. The likes of Ireland, Cyprus, Spain and Italy have all applied for bailouts or at least some form of financial assistance from the EU, the IMF and the European Central Bank in the last decade.

And this is the thing that really concerns me about the EU project - that in order to have these loans or support, the unelected officials have imposed severe terms that the Governments of these supposedly sovereign countries MUST enforce, otherwise they don't get their economy-saving cash injections.

That blows any argument about sovereignty out of the water. How is it right that unelected bureaucrats (most of whom are on massive tax-payer-funded wages, complemented with hefty tax-payer-funded expense accounts) can dictate terms to elected Governments of sovereign nations?

To me, it is not. And it is certainly not working collaboratively to protect the most vulnerable.

There is a point to working collaboratively on issues which all member states have an interest in, for instance trade.

But there are some areas where it is impossible to have a federalist policy, such as economics. That's part of the reason why the euro is failing badly. You can't expect something to work in exactly the same way across 28 vastly different member states, with their own national laws and customs to abide by. The only way it could work is with political union, as well as economic union, which would never happen.

If the EU was loose collection of states working together on areas likes trade where we can all help each other, I wouldn't have an issue.

But it has gone beyond that and is now implementing policies which benefit some countries, at the detriment to others.

That's why I don't believe the EU does work collaboratively, or seeks the best for those involved. It suits its own political interests, regardless of those who fall by the wayside.
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:32 pm

Darlogramps wrote:I love how the basis of Lo's arguments on the EU are formed on a couple of lectures from the educational powerhouse that is the University of Lincoln (the 56th best university in the UK, according to the Guardian's most recent guide).
I am comfortable with my position and it is completely independent of immigration, sovereignty, economic factors. Collaborating closely with others, sharing and pooling resources to help those who are most in need, and where investment will produce the biggest returns is simply the right thing to do.
See here's the thing, I don't believe the EU does any of these things. I don't believe they pool resources to help those in need. I don't believe they work collaboratively, or seek to maximise returns to help ALL member states.

Look at what's happened in Greece. Enforced austerity on a scale that makes Osborne's budget slashing look like mere tinkering. Riots in the street, mass unemployment, non-existent job prospects for the country's young people. There's also been a spike in suicide rates.

All this to help protect the Euro from plummeting. How is this "working collaboratively"? Where's the benefit to these people from the EU?

And it's not just Greece. The likes of Ireland, Cyprus, Spain and Italy have all applied for bailouts or at least some form of financial assistance from the EU, the IMF and the European Central Bank in the last decade.

And this is the thing that really concerns me about the EU project - that in order to have these loans or support, the unelected officials have imposed severe terms that the Governments of these supposedly sovereign countries MUST enforce, otherwise they don't get their economy-saving cash injections.

That blows any argument about sovereignty out of the water. How is it right that unelected bureaucrats (most of whom are on massive tax-payer-funded wages, complemented with hefty tax-payer-funded expense accounts) can dictate terms to elected Governments of sovereign nations?

To me, it is not. And it is certainly not working collaboratively to protect the most vulnerable.

There is a point to working collaboratively on issues which all member states have an interest in, for instance trade.

But there are some areas where it is impossible to have a federalist policy, such as economics. That's part of the reason why the euro is failing badly. You can't expect something to work in exactly the same way across 28 vastly different member states, with their own national laws and customs to abide by. The only way it could work is with political union, as well as economic union, which would never happen.

If the EU was loose collection of states working together on areas likes trade where we can all help each other, I wouldn't have an issue.

But it has gone beyond that and is now implementing policies which benefit some countries, at the detriment to others.

That's why I don't believe the EU does work collaboratively, or seeks the best for those involved. It suits its own political interests, regardless of those who fall by the wayside.
Great post, Gramps. Unfortunately, I fear it has too much logic in it for many Remainians to understand.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:07 pm

Darlogramps wrote:University of Lincoln
Well done you failed to successfully click on a link. Whilst I have spoken to a few folk who have studied the EU from a legal perspective I have based my opinion on something different than that.

Despite your there is no other viewpoint method of delivery, clearly there is otherwise the referendum would not be generating such a debate and such a difference of opinion.

I was simply challenging (with one piece of evidence) where it was put that the facts are there regarding sovereignty, yet experts in that area state the facts are actually the opposite.

If there truly are no benefits in us staying why are so many institutions, so many experts saying that there are? Or are they all more foolish than thou?

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:22 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:University of Lincoln
Well done you failed to successfully click on a link. Whilst I have spoken to a few folk who have studied the EU from a legal perspective I have based my opinion on something different than that.

Despite your there is no other viewpoint method of delivery, clearly there is otherwise the referendum would not be generating such a debate and such a difference of opinion.

I was simply challenging (with one piece of evidence) where it was put that the facts are there regarding sovereignty, yet experts in that area state the facts are actually the opposite.

If there truly are no benefits in us staying why are so many institutions, so many experts saying that there are? Or are they all more foolish than thou?
"Experts say..."

What is important is not WHO is saying it, but WHAT they are saying. Your above post is nothing more than an overly wordy "appeal to authority".

You and your bloody logical fallacies.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:31 pm

Despite your there is no other viewpoint method of delivery, clearly there is otherwise the referendum would not be generating such a debate and such a difference of opinion.

I was simply challenging (with one piece of evidence) where it was put that the facts are there regarding sovereignty, yet experts in that area state the facts are actually the opposite.

If there truly are no benefits in us staying why are so many institutions, so many experts saying that there are? Or are they all more foolish than thou?
Firstly, your link doesn't work - you can't click on it. It takes me to the "Uni of Li". So it's you who can't even copy across a link, let alone form a coherent argument on the EU. Liverpool, Lincoln, Lithuania - it doesn't matter. After going to university, I'd rather hope you'd be able to form your own arguments, rather than parrot what your marxist tutors say.

Secondly, no one has said "there truly are no benefits to staying in the EU". I've listed some in my full post on how the EU overrides sovereign national governments to impose its will (a post you seem to have completely ignored because it exposes major weaknesses in your own simplistic "The EU works collaboratively for all" argument).

Do you deliberately throw in strawman arguments, or are you just dense? It's an odd tactic you seem to deploy every time someone puts in a coherent counter-argument - to distort what they are saying to the extreme. It's either a deliberate tactic or that you just can't follow what someone is saying. Either way, you're only undermining your own arguments.

I've not denied there are benefits to staying in the EU. But there are also benefits to leaving. The question we have to weigh up in this referendum is 'do the benefits of staying outweigh the benefits of leaving?'

There's no right answer - it's just which do we as individuals feel is right.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jamm
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Jamm » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:33 pm

The Remain campaign must be ashamed of the EU they are desperate to stay in, they cynically have red, white and blue as their colours rather than the yellow and blue of the EU flag. The Remain campaign never refer to the EU Treaties. Read Articles 2-6 TFEU on the extent of EU powers. Or Article 34 TEU which states that “Member States shall coordinate their action in international organisations and at international conferences.” Or Article 8 TEU which states that “The Union shall develop a special relationship with neighbouring countries, aiming to establish an area of prosperity and good neighbourliness, founded on the values of the Union and characterised by close and peaceful relations based on cooperation” (e.g. relations with UK after leaving). The Remain campaign never refer to the future of the EU, e.g. the Five Presidents Report on completing EMU – we don’t have the Euro but are still required to “coordinate…economic policies within the Union” (Article 5(1) TFEU).

The Leave campaign have been disorganised and stupid in 1) not having a detailed plan and 2) focusing on immigration. Having a detailed plan such as the Flexcit plan I mentioned previously would negate most of Project Fear. Whilst immigration is a major concern it won’t be entirely controlled by leaving the EU, and the issue of sovereignty is the key issue of the referendum, whilst minimising the economic risk. That said leaving the EU and staying in the EEA via EFTA allows more control than we have now via Article 112 of the EEA Agreement.

There has been so much dishonesty in this campaign. The question is whether we are to leave the EU or remain in the EU. We are not electing a new government. There is no mandate to leave the single market. Just the EU. A Leave vote is an instruction to the current government to begin negotiations to the leave the EU. This will lead to the formation of a definitive plan before Article 50 TEU is initiated, starting the formal negotiations. We will inevitably re-join EFTA and stay in the EEA single market, thus minimising economic risk, benefitting from EFTA’s own third party agreements whilst having the freedom to make our own, being free to have control of our own policy again in many areas (see Articles 2-6 TFEU), whilst remaining in the EEA and abiding by single market rules (but having independent influence in the global bodies where many of the rules and standards originate).

If we stay in the EU we get more of the same shallow, dishonest politics, with the parties having little discretion to have any serious policies, as so much now is an EU ‘competence’. We will have less control over immigration. We will continue to pay more to the EU budget than we get back. Our democracy, or what’s left of it, will die. But if we leave the EU we have the chance to revitalise politics, enable clear policies to be formulated , debated and implemented. We will have more control over immigration. We will pay far less to the EEA grants etc than we do to the EU budget. We will have our own voice in global affairs. This is our chance for real change. Let’s take it. Vote Leave.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:39 pm

lo36789 wrote:I am comfortable with my position and it is completely independent of immigration, sovereignty, economic factors. Collaborating closely with others, sharing and pooling resources to help those who are most in need, and where investment will produce the biggest returns is simply the right thing to do.
lo, Darlogramps has beaten me to it so I'll be succinct - the EU is failing, it needs a complete overhaul, but that is never going to happen - it's mantra of "one size fits all" isn't fair and doesn't work.
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lo36789
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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:39 pm

Jamm out of interest given the sales pitch by leave - do you think we would be able to remain in the single market as part of an EU exit?

Surely leave voters will feel short changed if we remain in the single market which as I understand it will almost certainly include free movement of people?

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:07 pm

For the EU to succeed, the UK needs to leave.

The EU has already taken fundamental steps for the creation of a new nation state (i.e. the single market, currency, European standards) and for it to go to the next level, they now need a complete political and financial (including all taxes) union. This is something the UK (I sincerely hope) would never agree to join.

The strong economies need to start subsidising the weak economies. You can’t have Germany continuing to tell Greece what their budgets must be and how they must run their economy. The EU has created this problem – a problem that any intelligent person could see was always in the making.

The Eurozone has caused devastation for many member states which, in turn, has affected the UK with increased migration from such countries. It is clearly unfair that decisions made by members of the Eurozone are allowed to affect the UK.

We need to Leave the EU to enable both the UK and the EU to separately progress and improve their relationships with each other. The current relationship will be a constant source of disharmony.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Jamm » Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:12 am

lo36789 wrote:Jamm out of interest given the sales pitch by leave - do you think we would be able to remain in the single market as part of an EU exit?

Surely leave voters will feel short changed if we remain in the single market which as I understand it will almost certainly include free movement of people?
Yes, as leaving the EU is all the ballot paper asks, it's for the government to decide how to action the vote, remaining in EEA via EFTA is most sensible and pragmatic way of doing it, a compromise in a way. There will be discontent whatever happens. Leaving EU rejoining EFTA is the best option we have.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:03 am

Henley if you voted leave but we still had free movement of people - would you feel shortchanged by the leave campaign or would you think that is just a compromise?

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:25 am

lo36789 wrote:Henley if you voted leave but we still had free movement of people - would you feel shortchanged by the leave campaign or would you think that is just a compromise?
If they didn't stop free movement, I would have an issue as that has been the major concern for the majority of Leave voters.

To ignore the will of the people would, I believe, cause a substantial loss of votes for the parties who refused to carry out what is expected.

It wouldn't necessarily be Vote Leave who would be at fault.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:26 am

It will be quite interesting given that those voting for leave are actually not voting for the terms of the exit. Simply that we will exit in some shape or form.

Some sides say we will remain in the single market (paying in + free movement of people - the 'Norway' model) others say we will turn our backs on the European Economic Area and will trade instead with China/Australia/US.

I suppose this is the argument Ruth Davidson made quite well last night. Can any leave voters say they know what they are actually voting to happen on Thursday? Does that not bother you at all?

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Jamm » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:39 am

Do Remain voters know what they are voting for? Look at the history of the EU. Read the EU Treaties (or scan read them!). Read the Five Presidents report. That is what the Remain campaign never mention, it's all empty rhetoric. Brexit is not an event but a process. Leave the safe way and take it from there. Art 112 EEA Agreement allows the "emergency brake" control on immigration, which non-EU EEA states can implement unilaterally, whereas EU states require approval (likely rejection). We're talking of a long term plan to better adapt to the globalisation of regulation and standards, being in the EU holds us back.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:58 am

lo36789 wrote:It will be quite interesting given that those voting for leave are actually not voting for the terms of the exit. Simply that we will exit in some shape or form.

Some sides say we will remain in the single market (paying in + free movement of people - the 'Norway' model) others say we will turn our backs on the European Economic Area and will trade instead with China/Australia/US.

I suppose this is the argument Ruth Davidson made quite well last night. Can any leave voters say they know what they are actually voting to happen on Thursday? Does that not bother you at all?
I don't know what will be on your voting slip but on mine I've voted for the UK to leave the EU. This vote is simply the first step of reducing formal ties with the EU.

It's beyond me why people go on as if the Vote Leave campaign is the government.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:50 am

As I said: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060

Nevertheless, as an insurance bet, I've put £800 on Remain to win @ 1/4 - hopefully, I won't see that money again :wave:

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:34 pm

Most of the Remain argument seems to be about what MIGHT happen if we leave: essentially apocalyptic predictions that either cannot be independently verified until we actually leave, or can easily be contradicted.

And that seems to be the basis of their entire campaign, a set of predictions from people who we're meant to just trust and take their word, and we're supposed to trust them and take their word because the Remain campaign have labelled them as "experts", or some other important sounding name.

It's even less convincing when you've got "experts" on both sides of the argument, so they're essentially saying "trust our experts' word because they're more expert than your experts", or "we have more experts than you, therefore our total expert level is greater than yours, making their opinion more trustworthy by virtue of numbers".

:problem:

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:51 pm

The luvvie-lefties' distain for Leave voters is outright bigotry.

The stuff from Lily Allen and Robert Webb in recent days could start a civil war in some countries.

:roll:

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Mission Impossible » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:52 pm

Just been to get some Euro's for my holiday. Place was extremely busy with people doing the same, in the expectation that the value of the pound will fall if we vote leave.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:58 pm

Mission Impossible wrote:Just been to get some Euro's for my holiday. Place was extremely busy with people doing the same, in the expectation that the value of the pound will fall if we vote leave.
I seriously considered doing the same this morning but as I'm not going to Europe until the end of September I thought it'll not be worth it, especially as I would expect sterling and the Euro to be both affected.

It's definitely worth considering if you're travelling outside the Eurozone though.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:10 pm

Interesting that 1.2 million people living in Australia and New Zealand will be eligible to vote. I guess a lot will depend on if they get income from Britain, as the pound may well go down if we exit Europe, but it might mean more trade between Britain and these areas. The way they vote could well be crucial to the outcome of the referendum.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:04 pm

Boris has been in Darlington today!

Just seen it on Sky News :clap: :clap: :clap:

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/1 ... eferendum/

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:35 pm


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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:19 pm

Well done Boris.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:24 pm

On the BBC website it shows a picture of Boris, looks to me like he was at the George at Piercebridge. I'm surprised I couldn't hear him from where I live.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Darlo_Pete » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:54 pm

Looks like the weather could be an influence tomorrow. In the South East which is likely to vote to remain, it's forecast for torrential thunderstorms, the rest of the country should be dry and fine.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Sussex07 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:17 pm

Darlo_Pete wrote:Looks like the weather could be an influence tomorrow. In the South East which is likely to vote to remain, it's forecast for torrential thunderstorms, the rest of the country should be dry and fine.
That's a bag of wind,Pete..i can't remember speaking to anybody who wants to stay in.. thats message i get from our corner of Sussex. ;)

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:44 pm

Interesting stuff from Michael Crick on LBC this evening.

He's been with the Leave Campaign today speaking to their strategists.

In summary, Leave are cautiously optimistic.

Leave are fairly certain they have a clear lead from Postal Votes which they believe will be somewhere between 20% and 25% of all votes cast.

Leave think Remain may win the on-the-day votes but only by a small margin.

The above two factors are what makes Leave cautiously optimistic.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Earl_Lee_Dawes » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:18 pm

Anyone who votes to leave is a FOOL.

That's all.

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Re: EU Referendum

Post by Henley » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:38 pm

Earl_Lee_Dawes wrote:Anyone who votes to leave is a FOOL.

That's all.
Is this Jo Cox's legacy?

:roll:

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