Season at risk of finishing early

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Darlogramps
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Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:01 pm

Giving this its own thread as it looks fairly significant.

Off-the-back of the Government saying further financial support will be in the form of loans, not grants, looks like the league could be ended.

Up to 3/4s of NLN and NLS clubs are said to support ending the season this week if the Government doesn’t back down.

Presume we would be among them, given our call for grants last week.

Among all this the National League have been pitiful.

https://theathletic.com/news/national-l ... 1YdVJt55wM
If ever you're bored or miserable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZohZoadGY

JE93
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by JE93 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:19 pm

I’d love to say I can’t believe we’re in this situation. But as you say the national league have been inept from the start.

How can directors at these clubs take loans with no idea when they will have the income to pay them back? It’s the definition of trading insolvent. Where will the money be coming from? Who will be managing and calling in these loans? Are they going to bankrupt community clubs. It’s a ludicrous situation to be in part way through a season and heads should be rolling at the top of the national league.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by JasonDeVos » Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:28 pm

JE93 wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:19 pm
I’d love to say I can’t believe we’re in this situation. But as you say the national league have been inept from the start.

How can directors at these clubs take loans with no idea when they will have the income to pay them back? It’s the definition of trading insolvent. Where will the money be coming from? Who will be managing and calling in these loans? Are they going to bankrupt community clubs. It’s a ludicrous situation to be in part way through a season and heads should be rolling at the top of the national league.
I have total faith in the board to do what is best for the club.

We have seen the impact of loans against our club in the past and it doesn’t end well.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:45 pm

There is no point in playing on if it just puts us into debt. It’s pointless.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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wizardofos
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by wizardofos » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:46 am

We may be legally bound to pay players' wages anyway. I understand that the earlier Covid situation provided for a clause in their contracts which said that payments began only when the season began, but I didn't hear of any further clauses cancelling their contracts shoud a further Covid stoppage occur.
If this is the case, there would be little reason to cancel the season for reasons of financial expediency.
Perhaps someone else can shed some light on this?

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by al_quaker » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:57 am

Presumably the players could be furloughed if the season was stopped?

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:51 am

al_quaker wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:57 am
Presumably the players could be furloughed if the season was stopped?
Apparently this would cost the government more than providing new grants!

I was reading about this last night and ended up on a website local to Aldershot.

The Aldershot Town chairman points out that most of the grant money received gets used up on club wages and this in turn goes through the PAYE system where 20 % gets paid back to the government in tax. So we have a situation where we need to get a loan from the government to keep the show on the road - the government will benefit in a nice chunk of revenue collection but what do we get apart from a debt?

To my simplistic thinking there are only two outcomes here. Either the government back down and finish what they started or the season gets paused and players go on furlough.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

onewayup
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by onewayup » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:19 am

I think the only option open to clubs in national leagues without funding grants is to end the season, no club should be forced into a situation of unmanageable measures resulting in administration, that is where the season is heading for a number of clubs, no funding, no fans through turnstiles no commercial, no money to run clubs,pay players, absolutely crazy situation, the league board should have been onto this situation as it was always in the background of happening, seems no forethought gone into safeguarding the season for national leagues. The powers above national leagues need to ask questions of the national league management handling of the whole situation from distribution of the lottery funding to why they haven't come up with plan B for the continuation of the league once it had started.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:00 am

onewayup wrote:I think the only option open to clubs in national leagues without funding grants is to end the season, no club should be forced into a situation of unmanageable measures resulting in administration, that is where the season is heading for a number of clubs, no funding, no fans through turnstiles no commercial, no money to run clubs,pay players, absolutely crazy situation, the league board should have been onto this situation as it was always in the background of happening, seems no forethought gone into safeguarding the season for national leagues. The powers above national leagues need to ask questions of the national league management handling of the whole situation from distribution of the lottery funding to why they haven't come up with plan B for the continuation of the league once it had started.
The National League management are an absolute disgrace the way this is panning out.Totally clueless and so out of touch with loans against grants.How in all honesty do they seriously envisage clubs at our level even surviving....they are that useless.What amazes me is how FT clubs are managing their finances with massive budgets, even York City announced another couple of signings recently.
No idea tbh.

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Old Git
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Old Git » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:14 am

Without a clear pathway through the current situation it could be disastrous for many clubs to keep blindly going on. Not just the financial insecurity but the very real possibility that we will just simply run out of time to get through everything by May. We now have a minimum of 32 games to play from late January in around 4 months in the middle of a global pandemic. Taking bad weather and further disruption due to Covid outbreaks as likely factors it was starting to look almost impossible before the news about grants ending.
The most important thing for us and other clubs is to have a viable business to start again when it is safe to do so. A new season starting again with at least some spectators looks a reasonable aspiration for August this year.

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:58 am

Another issue is the players.

On another thread it was pointed out about whether or not it's a good idea at the height of a pandemic to send a bus load of players down to Weymouth, amongst other places.

If the club is managing financially you could make the point that it's work - but if the end result is to put the club into debt then it could be argued that the players efforts, and the risks they are taking, are for nothing.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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en passant
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by en passant » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:04 am

Just wondering, but if the League decided that clubs must continue to fulfil fixtures without grants, as loans are available, and the clubs decide that they cannot do this without a complete meltdown to their finances, what would be the options open to them? Could the League insist on them carrying on and could they put financial sanctions on clubs that refuse to comply? Could clubs be left to choose between the proverbial rock and a hard place?

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:11 am

en passant wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:04 am
Just wondering, but if the League decided that clubs must continue to fulfil fixtures without grants, as loans are available, and the clubs decide that they cannot do this without a complete meltdown to their finances, what would be the options open to them? Could the League insist on them carrying on and could they put financial sanctions on clubs that refuse to comply? Could clubs be left to choose between the proverbial rock and a hard place?
The million dollar question.

Can anyone force a business to continue? Force a business to take a loan? It sounds well dodgy.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

Tamworth matchday programme 26 Nov 2011

LoidLucan
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by LoidLucan » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:31 am

It would pretty much spell the end of the league if the board threatened financial sanctions on clubs that feared for their future if they are coerced into taking on loans that threatened their financial future. It's pretty much certain that if the only offer on the table is for clubs to take on debt instead of grants, then the plug will be pulled on the season. Then a way through the contracts/furlough issue will have to be found.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by H1987 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:42 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:51 am
al_quaker wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:57 am
Presumably the players could be furloughed if the season was stopped?
Apparently this would cost the government more than providing new grants!

I was reading about this last night and ended up on a website local to Aldershot.

The Aldershot Town chairman points out that most of the grant money received gets used up on club wages and this in turn goes through the PAYE system where 20 % gets paid back to the government in tax. So we have a situation where we need to get a loan from the government to keep the show on the road - the government will benefit in a nice chunk of revenue collection but what do we get apart from a debt?

To my simplistic thinking there are only two outcomes here. Either the government back down and finish what they started or the season gets paused and players go on furlough.
Perhaps there is some sort of third-party (conservative party donor, of course) that could skim off some profits in return for providing the money. They'll approve that in no time.

The common sense stuff? Forget it. Dodgy Rishi and his multi-millionaire mates can't line their pockets that way!

darlo2001uk
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by darlo2001uk » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:08 pm

One way or another the season had little realistic chance of being completed when it started. Looks like this could be the stopping point.

en passant
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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by en passant » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:20 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:31 am
It would pretty much spell the end of the league if the board threatened financial sanctions on clubs that feared for their future if they are coerced into taking on loans that threatened their financial future. It's pretty much certain that if the only offer on the table is for clubs to take on debt instead of grants, then the plug will be pulled on the season. Then a way through the contracts/furlough issue will have to be found.
This is certainly the reasonable response, but having seen some of the completely weird decisions that the League have already been guilty of it does make me wonder if good sense and League decisions are complete strangers to one another. And again, just wondering, are the League themselves being pushed into a undesirable corner by the league sponsors who might also want their pound of flesh out of this sorry mess.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Maurice_Peddelty » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:27 pm

LoidLucan wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:31 am
It would pretty much spell the end of the league if the board threatened financial sanctions on clubs that feared for their future if they are coerced into taking on loans that threatened their financial future. It's pretty much certain that if the only offer on the table is for clubs to take on debt instead of grants, then the plug will be pulled on the season. Then a way through the contracts/furlough issue will have to be found.
The NL is owned by its member clubs. So, I would expect that there must be something in the NL's constitution to enable the member club's to call a general meeting and pass a resolution (subject to the voting requirements) to call on the NL board to withdraw any financial threats/sanctions. Of course this would be dependent on sufficient clubs to be in agreement. There is also the difficulty that the NLN and NLS clubs only have, I believe (but I might wrong) only 4 votes between them. So the views of the NL clubs would most likely prevail.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Vodka_Vic » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:30 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:11 am
en passant wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:04 am
Just wondering, but if the League decided that clubs must continue to fulfil fixtures without grants, as loans are available, and the clubs decide that they cannot do this without a complete meltdown to their finances, what would be the options open to them? Could the League insist on them carrying on and could they put financial sanctions on clubs that refuse to comply? Could clubs be left to choose between the proverbial rock and a hard place?
The million dollar question.

Can anyone force a business to continue? Force a business to take a loan? It sounds well dodgy.
In David Johnson's original interview 3 days before the season started he very much implied that it was illegal to force a company to trade insolvently (someone in the know may be able to advise me here on the legalities of it) and in his words we 'Have the NL over a barrel' because of this. This very much implies no in answer to your question. He also said that other NLN chairmen should stand together on this and not fail in their business duties. I have a feeling that we have been trailblazers in making a stand from what DJ has been saying sporadically and that he is in regular contact with other chairmen. Personally? I think we are heading for the end of the season.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by jjljks » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:59 pm

Bloody typical, just when it was obvious to nearly every Quaker fan that we were going to Wembley to win the FA Trophy and then smash the league by winning every game thus winning promotion. :wtf:

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:57 pm

jjljks wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:59 pm
Bloody typical, just when it was obvious to nearly every Quaker fan that we were going to Wembley to win the FA Trophy and then smash the league by winning every game thus winning promotion. :wtf:
Now's not the time for jokes jjljks.
Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by onewayup » Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:54 pm

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Re: Home Kit VoteQuote

Post by onewayup » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:39 pm

The more that is disclosed over the funding issue,IE loans the more likely it is that we will see a premature end to the season it's difficult enough trying make ends meet without having loans thrust upon an already dry funding stream, how would the clubs repay with interest with no paying clientele of any kind.
Club's would be absolutely stupid to take out loans that they couldn't service. It turns out the league season should not have started, the club have been shafted into starting by a minimal funding of 3 months that has run it's course,now nothing there to replace it, crass stupidity from the national league for not following this up and finding a solution amenable to all 66 club's in the national league,s
.
Where

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by onewayup » Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:56 pm

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Re: Home Kit VoteQuote

Post by onewayup » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:39 pm

The more that is disclosed over the funding issue,IE loans the more likely it is that we will see a premature end to the season it's difficult enough trying make ends meet without having loans thrust upon an already dry funding stream, how would the clubs repay with interest with no paying clientele of any kind.
Club's would be absolutely stupid to take out loans that they couldn't service. It turns out the league season should not have started, the clubs have been shafted into starting by a minimal funding of 3 months that has run it's course,now nothing there to replace it, crass stupidity from the national league for not following this up and finding a solution amenable to all 66 club's in the national league,s
.
Where do we go from here????????

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by spen666 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:13 pm

Image


May be some thing may leak tonight after this meeting or at latest after tomorrow's meetings

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by spen666 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:15 pm

Image




Would love to see all clubs refuse to play on Saturday

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:37 pm

Vodka_Vic wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:30 pm
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:11 am
en passant wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:04 am
Just wondering, but if the League decided that clubs must continue to fulfil fixtures without grants, as loans are available, and the clubs decide that they cannot do this without a complete meltdown to their finances, what would be the options open to them? Could the League insist on them carrying on and could they put financial sanctions on clubs that refuse to comply? Could clubs be left to choose between the proverbial rock and a hard place?
The million dollar question.

Can anyone force a business to continue? Force a business to take a loan? It sounds well dodgy.
In David Johnson's original interview 3 days before the season started he very much implied that it was illegal to force a company to trade insolvently (someone in the know may be able to advise me here on the legalities of it) and in his words we 'Have the NL over a barrel' because of this. This very much implies no in answer to your question. He also said that other NLN chairmen should stand together on this and not fail in their business duties. I have a feeling that we have been trailblazers in making a stand from what DJ has been saying sporadically and that he is in regular contact with other chairmen. Personally? I think we are heading for the end of the season.
No they can't force you to take a loan and yes it is illegal for a company director to knowingly trade insolvent, as they are effectively trading on creditors money.

They can fine you for failure to fulfill fixtures. The onus will be on clubs to cut their cloth accordingly or go out of business.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by eek » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:47 pm

I think this tweet is the all important one.
Many National League clubs feel they were led to believe that grants would remain in place for the whole time that supporters weren’t in grounds.

Some argue, they would not have begun the season if they thought future support would come in the form of loans rather than grants.
I don't think either the NLN or NLS would have kicked off at all if clubs had known that the grants offered wouldn't cover the whole season.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Old Git » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:09 pm

eek wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:47 pm
I think this tweet is the all important one.
Many National League clubs feel they were led to believe that grants would remain in place for the whole time that supporters weren’t in grounds.

Some argue, they would not have begun the season if they thought future support would come in the form of loans rather than grants.
I don't think either the NLN or NLS would have kicked off at all if clubs had known that the grants offered wouldn't cover the whole season.
As Maurice Peddlety stated earlier in the thread the NLN and NLS can easily get outvoted by the NL clubs when it comes to a vote. If the majority of full time clubs in the NL want to continue then they will likely win the vote. Not sure if the NLN and NLS wanted to stop and the NL wanted to play on whether that would happen. Would all 3 Leagues have to follow the same course or would each League be allowed to determine it’s own future?

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:22 pm

https://twitter.com/Ollie_Bayliss/statu ... 42723?s=19

DCMS have denied that money was ever grants. No further money is coming except in form of loans.

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Re: Season at risk of finishing early

Post by Darlofan97 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:39 pm

It’s absolutely shocking from the DCMS & the National League.

Either party may not have specifically said that the funding would not be in the form of loans distributed to clubs, but it is not reasonable to have ever expected this to occur.

If we were to continue to be funded at the same level as October, November & December (in the form of monthly loans) we will find ourselves with an additional £150k of debt plus any interest at the end of the season.

Some clubs will obviously need a lot more to survive the remaining 5 months = more debt owed.

It’s crazy. I don’t know how the National League board have allowed this to happen. The integrity of the league and the footballing pyramid is on the brink of collapse, in addition to any confidence in the governance of the National League board (they haven’t even provided a full copy of the Bernstein report on the funding formula to clubs, for goodness sake).

A u-turn is needed within the next 24/48 hours. Otherwise we should furlough all management & players until the end of the season and not fulfil our fixtures. That is a better option than being saddled with debt long-term, or even worse.

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