Home Kit Vote

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loan_star
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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by loan_star » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:17 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:30 pm

Lol. Totally wrong, as confirmed by a board member. You know that thing about thinking things through before you type, you never learn.
As was your claim that this seasons sales outstripped last seasons sales. As confirmed by a board member.
However the fact that we aren't allowed to attend games could well have affected sales.
I wonder how the away shirts sales compare?

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by lo36789 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:29 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:30 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:02 pm
However I do massively disagree with the way this vote is being carried out. The DFCSG board let the cat out of the bag last year by saying they wanted change and excluding hoops altogether.
Aren't a good proportion of the DFCSG board only 3 months in role due to 2 stepping down and 3 having to retire from their positions, plus an extra place as only 11 / 12 roles were previously filled. Good job they all got their story in line quickly to conspire on home kit choice.
Lol. Totally wrong, as confirmed by a board member. You know that thing about thinking things through before you type, you never learn.
https://yourclub.darlingtonfc.co.uk/news/dfcsg-2020-agm

Was basing it on this article tbh. 5/11 stepped down (Chris, Andrew, Malcolm, Lee and Joe). 7 were appointed (to take it to 12 I assumed of which 4 hadn't applied before)

That would give a third being new.

The good job comment was tongue in cheek - as had been confirmed by the board member no agenda on kit choice around sales of shirts. I assume you will pick and choose which parts to acknowledge and which you won't though.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by lo36789 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:39 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:02 pm
Roughly how many members does the DFCSG have? Less than 350 voted in the semis, considerably less than 12 months ago (according to the club, in excess of 1800 votes were cast).
About 800 according to the updates at the AGM in October.
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:17 pm
And if your figure of 1,000 is true, that would suggest nearly 2/3s are rejecting the chance to even vote, providing even less justification for limiting the voting numbers. Unless of course the DFCSG board are trying to get the result they want.
I wasn't far off. If I remember rightly the target was to increase to 1000 rather than we actually had 1000.

Does show that the vote was accessible to a good proportion of our fan base. Well over half if you take average attendances as a measure.

Also as has been confirmed about its always been viewed that this would be a perk of being an owner. If it encourages some more of those 1800 that voted last time to become owners, sounds like there has been some take up in that regard this weekend, then that is a positive.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by Darlo_Pete » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:04 pm

Don't like either shirt in the final, so I won't be buying one for next season.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:35 pm

loan_star wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:30 pm

Lol. Totally wrong, as confirmed by a board member. You know that thing about thinking things through before you type, you never learn.
As was your claim that this seasons sales outstripped last seasons sales. As confirmed by a board member.
However the fact that we aren't allowed to attend games could well have affected sales.
I wonder how the away shirts sales compare?
In fairness I was going off the most recently available information and acknowledged it wasn’t up-to-date. Lo was just plain wrong.

But in terms of fans not attending, I don’t know how much it would impact. You could argue fans would be more likely to buy kits, to help the club out financially and as a show of support. There’s no way of knowing.
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Home Kit Vote

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:40 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:02 pm
Roughly how many members does the DFCSG have? Less than 350 voted in the semis, considerably less than 12 months ago (according to the club, in excess of 1800 votes were cast).
About 800 according to the updates at the AGM in October.
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:17 pm
And if your figure of 1,000 is true, that would suggest nearly 2/3s are rejecting the chance to even vote, providing even less justification for limiting the voting numbers. Unless of course the DFCSG board are trying to get the result they want.
I wasn't far off. If I remember rightly the target was to increase to 1000 rather than we actually had 1000.

Does show that the vote was accessible to a good proportion of our fan base. Well over half if you take average attendances as a measure.

Also as has been confirmed about its always been viewed that this would be a perk of being an owner. If it encourages some more of those 1800 that voted last time to become owners, sounds like there has been some take up in that regard this weekend, then that is a positive.
A drop in engagement from 1800 to 350 should worry the DFCSG board. And if the 800 figure is correct, less than half of members have taken the chance to have a say on identity. That provides less justification to do the same next year. If members don’t want this particular perk, it should be opened up to everyone.

I would suggest make the away kit a members vote, and return the home kit to all supporters to try and improve the engagement. It also removes any suspicion the DFCSG are trying to load the vote.

Also, why would you take average attendances as a measure? That makes no sense as it excludes exiles and overseas supporters who don’t attend as regularly. And we haven’t had home matches in nearly a year.

If 800 had the chance to vote, I’d say that’s under half, given the number of exiles, overseas and non-regular attendees. And less than half of that actually voted.
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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by lo36789 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:05 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:40 pm
It also removes any suspicion the DFCSG are trying to load the vote.
Baseless suspicions (board members confirm no agenda at all, and clearly explained the process) leading to a disputed vote output are clearly popular right now.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by loan_star » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:18 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:35 pm

In fairness I was going off the most recently available information and acknowledged it wasn’t up-to-date. Lo was just plain wrong.

But in terms of fans not attending, I don’t know how much it would impact. You could argue fans would be more likely to buy kits, to help the club out financially and as a show of support. There’s no way of knowing.
If we were allowed to attend matches then people are more likely to buy one to wear for the games. "Their mates have one so they buy one" type of thing. If they don't mix with their friends during the restrictions then the chances of them wanting a to buy one reduces.
Thats why I ask about the away shirt sales. If they are similar to last season then there has to be a reason why the home kit sales have dropped. If all sales are down then its more likely to be a pandemic thing. If it's just home shirts then its either because its too similar to the last one or people do want something different for a change.

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Home Kit Vote

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:18 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:40 pm
It also removes any suspicion the DFCSG are trying to load the vote.
Baseless suspicions (board members confirm no agenda at all, and clearly explained the process) leading to a disputed vote output are clearly popular right now.
Well they’d hardly come on and admit to it.

You’d be a cracking detective: “Did you commit murder?”

“No”

“Well that’s good enough for me.”

Nor do I think it’s baseless given the DFCSG board last year said they wanted to change kit design and tried to remove hoops without consulting fans.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Home Kit Vote

Post by Darlogramps » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:20 pm

loan_star wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:35 pm

In fairness I was going off the most recently available information and acknowledged it wasn’t up-to-date. Lo was just plain wrong.

But in terms of fans not attending, I don’t know how much it would impact. You could argue fans would be more likely to buy kits, to help the club out financially and as a show of support. There’s no way of knowing.
If we were allowed to attend matches then people are more likely to buy one to wear for the games. "Their mates have one so they buy one" type of thing. If they don't mix with their friends during the restrictions then the chances of them wanting a to buy one reduces.
Potentially. But you may also get people thinking: “I’m not attending matches, so will spend the money I would usually spend at the game on buying a kit instead.” Without interviewing everyone who buys kit, there’s no way of knowing.

It’s a fair point on the ratio of home kits to away kits being bought though.
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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by loan_star » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:24 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:20 pm
loan_star wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:35 pm

In fairness I was going off the most recently available information and acknowledged it wasn’t up-to-date. Lo was just plain wrong.

But in terms of fans not attending, I don’t know how much it would impact. You could argue fans would be more likely to buy kits, to help the club out financially and as a show of support. There’s no way of knowing.
If we were allowed to attend matches then people are more likely to buy one to wear for the games. "Their mates have one so they buy one" type of thing. If they don't mix with their friends during the restrictions then the chances of them wanting a to buy one reduces.
Potentially. But you may also get people thinking: “I’m not attending matches, so will spend the money I would usually spend at the game on buying a kit instead.” Without interviewing everyone who buys kit, there’s no way of knowing.
Hence the question about the away shirt sales

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by lo36789 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:01 pm

The basis of the complaint seems to be that you don't like kit 1 as a hooped option. That has then been translated as meaning that it is definitively a bad option, and that is a deliberate act to make people choose something else.

As it happens I actually like option 1. Others have said they do as well as a variation on a hooped pattern.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by onewayup » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:07 pm

Gamps,stop and think board members have answered your queries, they and most of us who post are getting peed off with your constant grumpy ways. Give it a rest man, no 1 win for me however I will buy any that is picked as I wholeheartedly support the club every way I am able to. It's our club
We have a duty as owners to make sure we have a club for years to come. Onwards and onwards
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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by EDJOHNS » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:22 pm

Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:55 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:17 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:51 am


My point is an issue like this, which is about the identity of the club, should be available to all fans. Not just the privileged few.
25 quid a year to join and can be done by monthly direct debit for about 2 quid a month. Hardly a massive hurdle stopping people from having the ability to vote.
1800 votes last year to 350 this year suggests otherwise.
Have we not got about 1000 members?
Are you telling me that 700 refused to vote because they did not want to feel "privileged"
I honestly don't get why people keep on sticking cash into the BTB etc but do not spend the small amount to become a member.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by Lawman3 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:24 pm

How much profit does the club make on the sale of a shirt?
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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by lo36789 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:20 am

Lawman3 wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:24 pm
How much profit does the club make on the sale of a shirt?
Don't think it is definitively known. I am not actually sure it would be the most commercially sensible thing to release as well.

The info we have is that the Joma kits have a lower cost price compared with Puma and the alternatives looked at.

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Home Kit Vote

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:08 am

lo36789 wrote:The basis of the complaint seems to be that you don't like kit 1 as a hooped option. That has then been translated as meaning that it is definitively a bad option, and that is a deliberate act to make people choose something else.

As it happens I actually like option 1. Others have said they do as well as a variation on a hooped pattern.
Oh, and the small fact the DFCSG board previously openly stated we should change kit, and tried to exclude hoops 12 months on.

And this time have restricted voting numbers.

Couple of small facts you conveniently ignored.

I don’t mind you disagreeing with my argument, but don’t make such a pathetic and deliberate attempt at mischaracterising it.
Last edited by Darlogramps on Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Home Kit Vote

Post by Darlogramps » Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:12 am

EDJOHNS wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:55 pm
EDJOHNS wrote:
Darlogramps wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:17 pm
lo36789 wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:51 am


My point is an issue like this, which is about the identity of the club, should be available to all fans. Not just the privileged few.
25 quid a year to join and can be done by monthly direct debit for about 2 quid a month. Hardly a massive hurdle stopping people from having the ability to vote.
1800 votes last year to 350 this year suggests otherwise.
Have we not got about 1000 members?
Are you telling me that 700 refused to vote because they did not want to feel "privileged"
I honestly don't get why people keep on sticking cash into the BTB etc but do not spend the small amount to become a member.
I’m saying a big drop off in voters suggests sticking this vote behind a paywall has led to a massive drop in engagement.

Regardless of how anyone tries to spin it, that is not good for a supporters-led/owned club.

Given the low engagement numbers this time, making next season’s home kit vote a public one has to be a consideration.
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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by beatroute66 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:25 am

The beauty of this club is that that fans get to choose. Hoops (or a variant of) or not (something else x3).

Newcastle United (a) don't ever deviate from b&w stripes and (b) don't even consult the fans on it. You are asked, every season in recent years, "which of these eight kits do you want two of for next season?".

This season, rightly in my personal opinion, the decision was made to make the vote Owners-only. For clarity, despite our status as a "fan-owned" club, you're only an 'individual Owner' if you pay DFCSG your £25 a year or £2.08 a month.

As stated previously, I'd personally have us in hoops every season. But, for numerous reasons, that's not always possible and nor is it what everyone wants. You just need to spend 5 minutes on social media to work that out.

This season there has been a 'hoop variant' - that, again speaking personally, would be my choice - and three alternatives. Whether you like/don't like any one of those three is up to you. That's democracy! Over to the Owners to decide, not either board.

The alternatives are we do a fan vote on "which supplier?" and then "which four from these 20 templates do you want?" (which would be ludicrous, clearly) or we don't have a vote at all and the fan-base are just told each season what the new kit will be, like most clubs do.

I know what I'd prefer and the club is already doing it.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by al_quaker » Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:44 am

Option 1 is growing on me. Was a shock to begin with, but it could be a nice change up while keeping the hoops theme.

I think restricting the home kit vote to owners too is fine too. Increasing the value of DFCSG membership will hopefully lead to increases in membership, which only benefits the club. The beauty of being fan owned is that if there's a decent number of fans who think the options provided are loaded in a certain direction, or the change to the voting eligibility is unfair, then they can effect change.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by JE93 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:27 am

beatroute66 wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:25 am
The beauty of this club is that that fans get to choose. Hoops (or a variant of) or not (something else x3).

Newcastle United (a) don't ever deviate from b&w stripes and (b) don't even consult the fans on it. You are asked, every season in recent years, "which of these eight kits do you want two of for next season?".

This season, rightly in my personal opinion, the decision was made to make the vote Owners-only. For clarity, despite our status as a "fan-owned" club, you're only an 'individual Owner' if you pay DFCSG your £25 a year or £2.08 a month.

As stated previously, I'd personally have us in hoops every season. But, for numerous reasons, that's not always possible and nor is it what everyone wants. You just need to spend 5 minutes on social media to work that out.

This season there has been a 'hoop variant' - that, again speaking personally, would be my choice - and three alternatives. Whether you like/don't like any one of those three is up to you. That's democracy! Over to the Owners to decide, not either board.

The alternatives are we do a fan vote on "which supplier?" and then "which four from these 20 templates do you want?" (which would be ludicrous, clearly) or we don't have a vote at all and the fan-base are just told each season what the new kit will be, like most clubs do.

I know what I'd prefer and the club is already doing it.
All sounds pretty reasonable to me, don't really understand the hyperbole that's originated from Joma's appointment and these choices. In my opinion, the chance at picking the home shirt is a nice perk of being an owner and the fact the price of being an owner is £25 for a full year means its not exactly elitist or exclusionary, votes may be down on previous years but that is assuming that all those who voted in previous years were exclusively Darlo fans, and that they only voted once (anyone with a personal and work email address could easily have voted twice).

Kits are always a question of taste. I've loved some of our non hooped kits since I started following Darlo in 2003 and I've loved some of our hooped kits. In my opinion, we've had some great looking hooped kits selected by fans in the past (Avec first season NLN) and some less good looking ones (Avec in the Northern Premier Winning season) where I have voted for the other designs because I didn't like the hooped option, and there will be fans who think the complete opposite of those two kits.

Option 1 of the final is a variation on hoops in my opinion and if the fan base want a clear connection to hoops to continue that's what they'll vote for, if they want a bit of a change they'll go for the sashed option. Whatever happens there will be some who like it and some who dont.

In fact.... do we even wear hoops? Are they not horizontal stripes if they don't run all the way around the shirt?

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by lo36789 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:37 am

Darlogramps wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:08 am
lo36789 wrote:The basis of the complaint seems to be that you don't like kit 1 as a hooped option. That has then been translated as meaning that it is definitively a bad option, and that is a deliberate act to make people choose something else.

As it happens I actually like option 1. Others have said they do as well as a variation on a hooped pattern.
Oh, and the small fact the DFCSG board previously openly stated we should change kit, and tried to exclude hoops 12 months on.

And this time have restricted voting numbers.
But that is still orientated around "I don't like option one, therefore it is definitely bad". That has to exist as a basis to use a previous statement as validation of this being deliberate attempt to choose one of the other three.

If your starting point is that number one is a smart variation on hoops / hoops option (or horizontal stripes as Quakerz would correct) there is no basis to start from. If as you described "broken hoops" wasn't an option then it would be more believable.

I don't see how restricting votes is evidence of a deliberate ploy to move away from hoops. The options are still the options whoever they were presented to.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by eek » Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:41 am

I think part of the issue is, that while we like hoops, hoops means you only need to purchase a shirt whenever we get a new sponsor.

It would probably make sense to promise that we will always have a hoop shirt the first year we have a new sponsor otherwise none hoop shirts will be used.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by loan_star » Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:40 pm

beatroute66 wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:25 am

The alternatives are we do a fan vote on "which supplier?" and then "which four from these 20 templates do you want?"
An alternative to this suggestion is to say something like the following :-

If we go with Joma your replica top will cost £40 but if we go with Adidas for example it will be £60 for your replica top. Cost to the club for all the stuff they need for the team will be £20k with Joma or £40k with Adidas. Therefore as owners we need to budget for £x up front etc etc

Then once the fans have decided which manufacturer to go with then they cant complain as they know the costs up front. Then you get the designs from the chosen supplier.

A long winded way of doing it but it might stop some of the complaints.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by divas » Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:55 pm

Or we could just let those with the professional qualifications on running a business get on with it as we mandated them to do at both the DFC and DFCSG AGM’s.

There are many intricacies to choosing and working with a supplier, price is probably one of the more straightforward. Having previously been part of the kit working group it’s certainly opened my eyes as to how difficult and time consuming a process it can be.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by Darlo Dodger » Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:11 pm

divas wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:55 pm
Or we could just let those with the professional qualifications on running a business get on with it as we mandated them to do at both the DFC and DFCSG AGM’s.

There are many intricacies to choosing and working with a supplier, price is probably one of the more straightforward. Having previously been part of the kit working group it’s certainly opened my eyes as to how difficult and time consuming a process it can be.
Spot on.
I for one am very happy with the work these volunteers put in and I am really grateful for everything they do.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by H1987 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:14 pm

I actually like 3 tbh. I've no issue with the occasional kit which has either a sash or a single black band for the sake of variety. I really liked the very thin black hoops (Glenwoods Paints) kit. I agree black and white hoops are our identity but to me, these for a year don't dilute that. I only really dislike either plain white or black and white stripes.

Can't vote as I'm not an owner. My fault that tbh. I am sort of inclined to agree that maybe the home kit should be a public vote and let owners do the away kit though, as I think wider engagement beyond owners is important. We need to be an open, not closed club.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:24 pm

Mr Singh said this " I'm not expecting to get back any of the money I've already put in, I'm prepared to write it off for the future of the club. I'm not hanging in to make any kind of financial gain in the short or long term - if someone was prepared to come in and take the club off my hands, I'd be more than willing to discuss it"

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by Footifanreturns » Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:43 pm

Well the vote will be in soon for the shirt design, personally I prefer the hoops or broken hoops but accept some do not like it, each to there own.

I will as usual buy several for my group regardless of whichever wins, as it is a way of helping the club. I have a wardrobe full of Darlo shirts that never get worn, no doubt added to again shortly lol.

I am just thankful that we have a group of volunteers that do in the main a fabulous job running the club.
Thankful that we as " Owners " of the club have the chance to vote for our new shirts, most clubs do not give that chance.

Of course there are the odd ones that think that vote has an agenda which is laughable.
I suggest the the more vociferous of the members on here run for office & take up the difficult & time consuming challenge of running the club. Instead of the continual bitching on here when their own views are not taken up.

As it has been suggested changes start from within with the democratic process that we have in place.

Well done to the Darlington Supporters Group for doing such a fine job, keep up the good work. Most on here do appreciate your endeavours to run the club.
Last edited by Footifanreturns on Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Home Kit Vote

Post by Lallacab » Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:45 pm

Footifanreturns wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:43 pm
Well the vote will be in soon for the shirt design, personally I prefer the hoops or broken hoops but accept some do not like it, each to there own.

I will as usual buy several for my group regardless of whichever wins, as it is a way of helping the club. I have a wardrobe full of Darlo shirts that never get worn, no doubt added to again shortly lol.

I am just thankful that we have a group of volunteers that do in the main a fabulous job running the club.
Thankful that we as " Owners " of the club have the chance to vote for our new shirts, most clubs do not give that chance.

Of course there are the odd ones that think that vote has an agenda which is laughable.
I suggest the the more vociferous of the members on here run for office & take up the difficult & time consuming challenge of running the club. Instead of the continual bitching on here when there own views are not taken up.

As it has been suggested changes start from within with the democratic process that we have in place.

Well done to the Darlington Supporters Group for doing such a fine job, keep up the good work. Most on here do appreciate your endeavours to run the club.
Exactly this 👆

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