Darlo Uncovered

H1987 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:23 pm

Yarblockos wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:20 am

Generating the millions needed to rebuild BM or build a stadium at the SV from scratch is not going to happen. If we ever want to progress beyond where we are then we can't stay at BM. I'm pretty sure DJ has already come to this conclusion.

Absolute nonsense. It's 700 shy of the required capacity for the national league, which is *easily* achievable. So that is progress in itself.

I'm assuming you mean the football league, which is way off right now. For that, we need 5,000 with 2,000 seats. Which is more problematic, but is *still* feasible at Blackwell, and cheaper than building something from scratch anywhere else. The issue of course, is that fundamental mistakes were made when we moved to Blackwell, which were avoidable. The tinshed not being deep enough, the seated stand not being deep enough... We prioritised short term convenience over long term planning a little. But it was either that, or chuck money at Heritage Park.

We made the right call.

But the consequence of prioritising short-term convenience can't be waved away, it means we need to knock down what we've already built and start again. Getting BM up to FL standard is a fantasy as it would cost us millions. Plus the club have suggested that the land at the open end is unsuitable for building on.

Increasing the capacity by 700 isn't a long term plan, we'd miss out on a huge amount of income. It's not so much about what the typical attendance is, its about potential attendances, those big crowds that help up the average and keep us going. We had 10,000 at the Arena last time we played Hartlepool, Boxing day gates of over 6,000, play off gates of 8,000 etc. We badly need that money going forward.

To make things worse Yarblockos, we actually need to increase the capacity by 1500, not 700 down that end. The reason is that in the NL, flat standing behind the goal does not count, so to get it up to 4000, we need something to give us 1500.

Jamoy wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:50 am

What would peoples' view be if we moved back to Areana?

<Ignore >

If we do end back at the Arena it would be great if we could put safe standing behind both goals, not sure how much it would cost but could appeal to those who like to stand particularly the tin shed fans. Anyone know of this has been looked at?

Yarblockos wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:18 pm

H1987 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:23 pm

Yarblockos wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:20 am

Generating the millions needed to rebuild BM or build a stadium at the SV from scratch is not going to happen. If we ever want to progress beyond where we are then we can't stay at BM. I'm pretty sure DJ has already come to this conclusion.

Absolute nonsense. It's 700 shy of the required capacity for the national league, which is *easily* achievable. So that is progress in itself.

I'm assuming you mean the football league, which is way off right now. For that, we need 5,000 with 2,000 seats. Which is more problematic, but is *still* feasible at Blackwell, and cheaper than building something from scratch anywhere else. The issue of course, is that fundamental mistakes were made when we moved to Blackwell, which were avoidable. The tinshed not being deep enough, the seated stand not being deep enough... We prioritised short term convenience over long term planning a little. But it was either that, or chuck money at Heritage Park.

We made the right call.

But the consequence of prioritising short-term convenience can't be waved away, it means we need to knock down what we've already built and start again. Getting BM up to FL standard is a fantasy as it would cost us millions. Plus the club have suggested that the land at the open end is unsuitable for building on.

Increasing the capacity by 700 isn't a long term plan, we'd miss out on a huge amount of income. It's not so much about what the typical attendance is, its about potential attendances, those big crowds that help up the average and keep us going. We had 10,000 at the Arena last time we played Hartlepool, Boxing day gates of over 6,000, play off gates of 8,000 etc. We badly need that money going forward.

Who are we going to get those crowds against? They're football league crowds you're talking about.

I'm not sure the cost would be millions, but it could be a million to upgrade blackwell for sure. It depends if we have to tear down existing infrastructure. The thing is, we're years. *Years* away from that possibility. Not to mention, it costs even more to do any other option. There isn't a cheaper or better idea.

Besides, you can't get to the football league as a part time outfit anymore. I'd like to think we can make it to, and compete in the national league in the next few years, but then it'd take years of consolidation at that level before we can think any further. The immediate future should be planning to be compliant for the national league level, and growing crowds. Blackwell is more than enough for that.

Also - 'hard standing' can be avoided being a problem by simply installing some additional railings. That's what other sides have done. You just can't stand on the barriers to the pitch, just like we can't in the tinshed now. More railings and stop people standing at the barriers and it's fine. Anyway, it's all conjecture, but all of this is better than the rusting tip on Neasham Road.

H1987 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:49 pm

Yarblockos wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:18 pm

H1987 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:23 pm

Yarblockos wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:20 am

Generating the millions needed to rebuild BM or build a stadium at the SV from scratch is not going to happen. If we ever want to progress beyond where we are then we can't stay at BM. I'm pretty sure DJ has already come to this conclusion.

Absolute nonsense. It's 700 shy of the required capacity for the national league, which is *easily* achievable. So that is progress in itself.

I'm assuming you mean the football league, which is way off right now. For that, we need 5,000 with 2,000 seats. Which is more problematic, but is *still* feasible at Blackwell, and cheaper than building something from scratch anywhere else. The issue of course, is that fundamental mistakes were made when we moved to Blackwell, which were avoidable. The tinshed not being deep enough, the seated stand not being deep enough... We prioritised short term convenience over long term planning a little. But it was either that, or chuck money at Heritage Park.

We made the right call.

But the consequence of prioritising short-term convenience can't be waved away, it means we need to knock down what we've already built and start again. Getting BM up to FL standard is a fantasy as it would cost us millions. Plus the club have suggested that the land at the open end is unsuitable for building on.

Increasing the capacity by 700 isn't a long term plan, we'd miss out on a huge amount of income. It's not so much about what the typical attendance is, its about potential attendances, those big crowds that help up the average and keep us going. We had 10,000 at the Arena last time we played Hartlepool, Boxing day gates of over 6,000, play off gates of 8,000 etc. We badly need that money going forward.

Who are we going to get those crowds against? They're football league crowds you're talking about.

I'm not sure the cost would be millions, but it could be a million to upgrade blackwell for sure. It depends if we have to tear down existing infrastructure. The thing is, we're years. *Years* away from that possibility. Not to mention, it costs even more to do any other option. There isn't a cheaper or better idea.

Besides, you can't get to the football league as a part time outfit anymore. I'd like to think we can make it to, and compete in the national league in the next few years, but then it'd take years of consolidation at that level before we can think any further. The immediate future should be planning to be compliant for the national league level, and growing crowds. Blackwell is more than enough for that.

Also - 'hard standing' can be avoided being a problem by simply installing some additional railings. That's what other sides have done. You just can't stand on the barriers to the pitch, just like we can't in the tinshed now. More railings and stop people standing at the barriers and it's fine. Anyway, it's all conjecture, but all of this is better than the rusting tip on Neasham Road.

The Arena is clearly a cheaper idea as it does not involve building a new ground. There are many problems with such a move, but lets be honest about the financial implications. "I don't like the Arena" isn't a good financial argument for staying at BM, and its the financial prospects that DJ has to consider.

You can't be full-time without increased income, that means increased attenances and increased corporate hospitality. Good luck growing crowds at a ground where people can't even see once the gate goes over 2500. It will be a even better match day experience when we add another set of railing to push people further back from from the pitch and cram an extra 700 onto flat standing area!

In any case, I note the NL regulations state that "Spectator standing areas behind the goals must be terraced."

Oh, and we've had plenty of crowds bigger than 3700 when were in the conference. There is also such a thing as the cup. Saying "we'll probably never get a big gate anyway" is not the way to run a football club.

Yarblockos wrote: You can't be full-time without increased income, that means increased attenances and increased corporate hospitality. Good luck growing crowds at a ground where people can't even see once the gate goes over 2500. It will be a even better match day experience when we add another set of railing to push people further back from from the pitch and cram an extra 700 onto flat standing area!

You would have a point, if you weren’t ignoring the fact our average crowds actually more than halved when we were last at the Arena. There’s no evidence to suggest crowds would be brought back.

Since then our fan base has dwindled even further after a four-year hiatus from the town.And the empty, soulless matchday experience at the Arena is not something that’s attractive to sell.

Moreover, you’re being fundamentally dishonest if you’re saying right here and now moving to the Arena will definitely equate to greater corporate revenues. We don’t know how the SV will be structured, what it will involve, how we’d fit into it, or what commercial opportunities will be open to us. What cut would the owners want? When else could we use the facilities? And so on. We just don’t know the answers, so claiming otherwise is dishonest.

Good luck growing crowds and revenues by moving back to a venue associated with disaster. Why on earth would any business in their right mind invest in us when we had so many issues previously at the Arena?

There are many issues with BM, of course there are.
But any move to the Arena has so many problems.

Throw in the issues surrounding primacy of tenure, the 4G pitch, resolving the BM lease (are we really going to pay for two venues when we’re stretched financially already?!) and the BM grants and you’re left holding an empty sack.

We are basically stuck between a rock and a hard place. We can't afford to start from scratch, and the 2 'solutions' available to us both have many issues which makes growing the club much harder. I really hope we find out something soon, so that we can figure what is the best (or should that be 'least worst'?) option for the future of the club, and then we can try and move forward within whatever constraints are laid out before us.

I just hope it's a pretty clear choice whenever we are faced with it - what we can 't afford is fragmenting the fanbase any further - we are still seeing the 'investment v fan ownership' debate started (or at least made 'mainstream'!) by Gray over 2 years ago.

Yarblockos wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:44 pm

H1987 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:49 pm

Yarblockos wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:18 pm

H1987 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:23 pm

Yarblockos wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:20 am

Generating the millions needed to rebuild BM or build a stadium at the SV from scratch is not going to happen. If we ever want to progress beyond where we are then we can't stay at BM. I'm pretty sure DJ has already come to this conclusion.

Absolute nonsense. It's 700 shy of the required capacity for the national league, which is *easily* achievable. So that is progress in itself.

I'm assuming you mean the football league, which is way off right now. For that, we need 5,000 with 2,000 seats. Which is more problematic, but is *still* feasible at Blackwell, and cheaper than building something from scratch anywhere else. The issue of course, is that fundamental mistakes were made when we moved to Blackwell, which were avoidable. The tinshed not being deep enough, the seated stand not being deep enough... We prioritised short term convenience over long term planning a little. But it was either that, or chuck money at Heritage Park.

We made the right call.

But the consequence of prioritising short-term convenience can't be waved away, it means we need to knock down what we've already built and start again. Getting BM up to FL standard is a fantasy as it would cost us millions. Plus the club have suggested that the land at the open end is unsuitable for building on.

Increasing the capacity by 700 isn't a long term plan, we'd miss out on a huge amount of income. It's not so much about what the typical attendance is, its about potential attendances, those big crowds that help up the average and keep us going. We had 10,000 at the Arena last time we played Hartlepool, Boxing day gates of over 6,000, play off gates of 8,000 etc. We badly need that money going forward.

Who are we going to get those crowds against? They're football league crowds you're talking about.

I'm not sure the cost would be millions, but it could be a million to upgrade blackwell for sure. It depends if we have to tear down existing infrastructure. The thing is, we're years. *Years* away from that possibility. Not to mention, it costs even more to do any other option. There isn't a cheaper or better idea.

Besides, you can't get to the football league as a part time outfit anymore. I'd like to think we can make it to, and compete in the national league in the next few years, but then it'd take years of consolidation at that level before we can think any further. The immediate future should be planning to be compliant for the national league level, and growing crowds. Blackwell is more than enough for that.

Also - 'hard standing' can be avoided being a problem by simply installing some additional railings. That's what other sides have done. You just can't stand on the barriers to the pitch, just like we can't in the tinshed now. More railings and stop people standing at the barriers and it's fine. Anyway, it's all conjecture, but all of this is better than the rusting tip on Neasham Road.

The Arena is clearly a cheaper idea as it does not involve building a new ground. There are many problems with such a move, but lets be honest about the financial implications. "I don't like the Arena" isn't a good financial argument for staying at BM, and its the financial prospects that DJ has to consider.

You can't be full-time without increased income, that means increased attenances and increased corporate hospitality. Good luck growing crowds at a ground where people can't even see once the gate goes over 2500. It will be a even better match day experience when we add another set of railing to push people further back from from the pitch and cram an extra 700 onto flat standing area!

In any case, I note the NL regulations state that "Spectator standing areas behind the goals must be terraced."

Oh, and we've had plenty of crowds bigger than 3700 when were in the conference. There is also such a thing as the cup. Saying "we'll probably never get a big gate anyway" is not the way to run a football club.

Bigger than 3,700? So, less than the 4,000 capacity we would need then? The realistic goal for the club right now is to get back to National level, that *is* progress, and it is realistic and achievable.

I'm clearly not suggesting you cram another 700 onto a one step, set back barrier. That would maintain the level at other areas around the ground in an inexpensive way, but you'd need to build another terrace at the open end to get the extra capacity. Which would be easily achievable. An equivalent of the tinshed at Bishop would more than do that. The idea that BM can't comfortably host National Level games is rubbish, frankly. It can easily. I agree that the challenge is the next level, but we are realistically nowhere near that - and also, you get a couple of years to fix that if it does come to pass.

How exactly is 'lets move to the arena, pay two rents, and annoy a significant chunk of our fanbase into the bargain' a solid financial argument? It's absolute nonsense. We've had one sell out crowd since 2012, and that was the opening of BM. Beyond us getting Hartlepool in the cup, or flying high top of the league on Boxing Day, it just isn't going to happen. Sticking us, in our current state, in the Arena that a lot of people didn't like anyway, and expecting crowd magic is Reynolds esque.

Also. Can a mod please edit the title... to either Ariana or Arena, but this half way house is annoying

This thread is getting to feel like a debate over Brexit. There are two opposing views of where the future lies but, without any clear facts to work on, both sides have managed to fill up nearly 4 pages bashing each other over their particularly partisan viewpoint without any benefit , or insight being achieved. I note that the OP has asked a question that has set this off, opening all the well-worn arguments for both sides, and has left us to it. It doesn't appear that the question was generated by anything new on progress towards the SV, so I can only assume that the question was posed out of some sort of devilment. Perhaps it is time to call it a day and wait another few months before someone again winds us up.

A planning application for the Sports Village is due to be submitted later this year so things are set to be moved forward. By that stage we should be in a position to make an informed choice based on all the facts and figures and a detailed look at what's actually on offer for the football club.

I’ve changed my mind on this a few times, but seeing the state the arena is in currently, with its huge rust patches and filthy, stained facades etc, I would be worried about the long term future if it. Undoubtedly it would be a cheaper option than building something new, or upgrading Blackwell and overcoming the issue of the water pipe, but that doesn’t make it the best option. We are going to struggle to become a league club without benefactor funding, so getting Blackwell to a league standard can take time. If we could build half a terrace behind the open end goal, with a view of extending it when needed that would do for me.

Also, can someone explain the benefits of having a 4g pitch of our own to rent out? I can’t see how that would make money. The town has plenty already that are not booked solid, so utilisation wouldn’t be high. Unless there are huge grants available to get one I can’t see where the profit is coming from? Power league just announced losses and is closing down quite a lot of sites as they don’t make money.

Since our board and DFCSG infrastructure group have been working on this for ages wouldn’t it be a solid idea to wait to hear what they have to say when the time is right?


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Personally I hope that, as well as giving us all the facts and figures, DJ also gives us his preferred option because that is what I will go with. The whole thing is so complex that I would rather trust his judgement than mine.

One thing about the arena, the steel was not galvanised so has a shorter life span than had it been, the result,s are there for all to see as you pass the white elephant rust at most of the joints which I,m told could be working from inside to the outside of the steel work.
A very costly problem for the owners in the not to distance future. Which needs to be taken into account before all the SV plans are at fruition.
We must allow those in charge to do
What needs to be done without interference until it's got a formal plan to put to us all in its entirety, only then can we make a decision on the factors put to us.

quakersfan wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:04 pm

If we do end back at the Arena it would be great if we could put safe standing behind both goals, not sure how much it would cost but could appeal to those who like to stand particularly the tin shed fans. Anyone know of this has been looked at?

Has anyone asked Mowden? It is their stadium after all, and also out of interest what makes you think the areas behind the goal will be open/required anyway? This is what I love about Darlo fans, no move has taken place and some are already talking as if we own the place!

From a personal point of view I would not be opposed to moving to the Sporting Village, especially due to the restricted opportunities of developing Blackwell Meadows any further.

However I do not believe moving to the Sports Village will be an automatic solution to all the problems/challenges we're currently facing and my two major concerns are viability and sustainability it has to be a long term solution and not a quick fix. I have maintained since 2012 I would not support a return to the Arena, nor have I ever considered a possibility especially with the issues of primacy of tenure and apparent plans to install a 4g pitch but if we were to move to a smaller stadium on site I would have no issues with it.

As has been mentioned already a lot of (beyond) worn old arguments have been drawn out in this thread already so I won't bother going over the many well documented problems at Blackwell Meadows, the situation there is not ideal however if we are to leave then it has to be for the right reasons. It's been well known the club has had some financial difficulties over the last few years and have just recently come out of debt I would rather stay at Blackwell than risk the club's long term stability for the sake of a short term solution.

It has to be a step forward and not a step to the side IE going from sharing with one Rugby Club to another.

H1987 wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:43 am

Also. Can a mod please edit the title... to either Ariana or Arena, but this half way house is annoying

Hopefully to Arena.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH................

theoriginalfatcat wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:21 pm

H1987 wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:43 am

Also. Can a mod please edit the title... to either Ariana or Arena, but this half way house is annoying

Hopefully to Arena.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH................

Ariana would be Grand(e)

All a club wants at national league or north/south level is a ground like afc telfords. Went there last Saturday, nice terrace behind goal and you could have a pint during the game providing it was drank on the terrace behind the dugouts. That bar been open throughout the game must bring a bit coin in


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divas wrote:We’ll need to find somewhere eventually. Can anyone really see the rugby club agreeing another license for us to play there when this one is up and they’ve cleared their debts?

Are you saying their debts are one-offs rather than operational?


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shildonlad wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:34 pm

All a club wants at national league or north/south level is a ground like afc telfords. Went there last Saturday, nice terrace behind goal and you could have a pint during the game providing it was drank on the terrace behind the dugouts. That bar been open throughout the game must bring a bit coin in


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Agree with everything apart from having to pay with Bit Coin

QuakerPete wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:10 pm

divas wrote:We’ll need to find somewhere eventually. Can anyone really see the rugby club agreeing another license for us to play there when this one is up and they’ve cleared their debts?

Are you saying their debts are one-offs rather than operational?


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Interesting.

QuakerPete wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:10 pm

divas wrote:We’ll need to find somewhere eventually. Can anyone really see the rugby club agreeing another license for us to play there when this one is up and they’ve cleared their debts?

Are you saying their debts are one-offs rather than operational?


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This is a fair point, to be honest. The place would probably run at a deficit alone - so either they hike their subs for all club members, or they agree to continue with us. It's also worth noting we've got over 20 years left on the current agreement. I think by that time, it may well be considered beneficial for all parties. Which, i think it clearly is.

Wiseacre wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:34 am

Maybe the fond memories of playing at Bishop Auckland are because we won a lot of games there whereas The Arena has some very painful ones. Some people called Reynolds idealistic at the time but I can't see the place as anything but a monument to his narcissism and ignorance about small football clubs. The club is in incomparably better hands now and BM's might have to do for a bit longer - the team didn't have any problems putting on such a good show there on Saturday.

To be fair Dave Whelan did the same with Wigan around the same time and that worked out, although it's still half empty every week.

It was always far too big but if you're going to build a ground like that you need the success on the pitch, that was Reynolds undoing as well.

If Whelan got bored and stopped funding them before they got the success they'd have gone the same way in that ground.

H1987 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:39 pm

QuakerPete wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:10 pm

divas wrote:We’ll need to find somewhere eventually. Can anyone really see the rugby club agreeing another license for us to play there when this one is up and they’ve cleared their debts?

Are you saying their debts are one-offs rather than operational?


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This is a fair point, to be honest. The place would probably run at a deficit alone - so either they hike their subs for all club members, or they agree to continue with us. It's also worth noting we've got over 20 years left on the current agreement. I think by that time, it may well be considered beneficial for all parties. Which, i think it clearly is.

We’ve got 16 years left and their main issue is paying back loans - once cleared they will have very little expenditure

gazzaa2 wrote:

Wiseacre wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:34 am

Maybe the fond memories of playing at Bishop Auckland are because we won a lot of games there whereas The Arena has some very painful ones. Some people called Reynolds idealistic at the time but I can't see the place as anything but a monument to his narcissism and ignorance about small football clubs. The club is in incomparably better hands now and BM's might have to do for a bit longer - the team didn't have any problems putting on such a good show there on Saturday.

To be fair Dave Whelan did the same with Wigan around the same time and that worked out, although it's still half empty every week.

It was always far too big but if you're going to build a ground like that you need the success on the pitch, that was Reynolds undoing as well.

If Whelan got bored and stopped funding them before they got the success they'd have gone the same way in that ground.

Think reynolds wanted to be the next whelan except whelan invested on the field also didnt wigan go in with Wigan rugby club to share the burden? They’ve had gigs there too something reynolds was never going to get with his attitude

jjljks wrote:

shildonlad wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:34 pm

All a club wants at national league or north/south level is a ground like afc telfords. Went there last Saturday, nice terrace behind goal and you could have a pint during the game providing it was drank on the terrace behind the dugouts. That bar been open throughout the game must bring a bit coin in


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Agree with everything apart from having to pay with Bit Coin

Its the new pay pal ha ha

The original post to this thread was written by D.J. to canvass opinion.

He misspelt Arena as a ruse to avoid suspicion.

H1987 wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:43 am

Also. Can a mod please edit the title... to either Ariana or Arena, but this half way house is annoying

Done. Thank u. Next.

(I WAS tempted to change it Ariana, I'll admit it )