Sporting Village

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divas
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Re: Sporting Village

Post by divas » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:43 pm

Given DMP is a separate entity to the stadium at the moment and will also been once the SV concept is complete I doubt it’ll take them out. Of course if it all goes to s*** they could have nowhere to play (sound familiar?)

I actually think the plans have the potential to make the arena viable from a financial point of view, even moreso if we’re part of the project in some way.

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:49 pm

H1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:13 pm
I give DMP five years absolute max, unless this football club is stupid and misguided enough to bail them out financially.
I'm not sure I understand this village thing. If Mowden and the council desperately both need to make this work, surely having a football team onboard and paying rent would suit them both. So why are they not buttering us up?
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Ghost_Of_1883
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Re: Sporting Village

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:59 pm

It's not a case of being "buttered up" or not - obviously they'd have us because it means more income of top of the potential other income from the SV development.

The problem is that a) part of the plan is a 4g pitch, which the football league does not allow currently and maybe never will, and b) the fact that the FA insist that the football teams fixtures take precedence in a clash.

a) and b) are currently insurmountable.

Then there is also DRFC to consider, and our contract with them.

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by QuakerPete » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:38 pm

LoidLucan wrote:Lots of it just sounds airy-fairy like a "Sporting Centre of Excellence" and a "Village Green". It mentions a leisure centre but there's already one in the town, there are track and field facilities elsewhere in the town, there doesn't seem to be much in terms of attracting the biggest sporting club in the town - us - and the cricket club isn't moving anywhere.

The reality is that at the heart of it is looking at ways of saving the Arena, which is failing and destined to take down MP with it unless something gives. If all there is for us is a piece of land where we can build ourselves a ground and then pay rent and other costs then there is very little in a sporting village for Darlington FC. There's a lot in it for MP if it takes away the burden of running that giant, money-eating stadium with crowds of 700-800 (lots of them very cheap or free.)
Agree with LL on his assessment of the Sporting Village and Darlington FC. I can’t see the attraction of moving there to start building a stadium from scratch and paying a landlord for the privilege; or going to The Arena with the same issues we face now of no funding opportunities


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H1987
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Re: Sporting Village

Post by H1987 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:51 pm

divas - surely they're financially contracted to the stadium though, and financially liable for problems with it, and tied to consequences if they fail to pay up. They must be running to a significant loss. Presumably they can't just up sticks and walk away... so i'll stick by that projection.

I don't see how any of this generates income. The plan supposedly consists of an incredibly vague:

1) Leisure complex
2) Retail outlets -
3) Village green - ok... so how does this turn a profit exactly?
4) Centre of sporting excellence - ok, what is this? How is it different to... uhhh.. what's there already? (presumably, it's more expensive)

The only thing of any real substance on these plans (From here https://democracy.darlington.gov.uk/ieD ... spx?Id=124) suggests:

In essence the proposal is to create a multiuser communal sports village (DSV) that
will have an improved arena as a centrepiece asset with artificial pitches and
reconfigured concourse for events, together with a centre of excellence for sports
development and additional sports and leisure uses, accompanied by on site Hotel,
Petrol Garage Station, and some food convenience shopping.

So... chucking more money at a failing stadium... undefined additional leisure uses, an undefined centre of sporting excellence (presumably revolving around one sport, which isn't *that* popular in the north east anyway), a hotel on site - not sure how this works, what the demand is, or where it goes... a petrol station? It's still a manky, oversized plastic bowl, and a monetary black hole. Even if we were on board, on site, in our own stadium we can never afford (lets just assume somehow we did have the money to do that), i don't see how any of that would make the arena more viable. The whole thing is only ever realistically profitable if you tear the pointless plastic bowl down. Simple as that.

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divas
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Re: Sporting Village

Post by divas » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:09 am

H1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:51 pm
divas - surely they're financially contracted to the stadium though, and financially liable for problems with it, and tied to consequences if they fail to pay up. They must be running to a significant loss. Presumably they can't just up sticks and walk away... so i'll stick by that projection.
That’s like saying we’re financially contracted to BM and would be liable if DRFC went bust. DMPRFC will have an agreement with the company that own the Arena and are likely pay a nominal rent to play at the Arena and that will be where the obligations stop. That’s the advantage of having them as two limited companies even if they’re owned by the same people.

If the company who owns the Arena were to default on the loan then ownership would pass to the lender who they’d then need to negotiate with if they wanted to continued playing there just like we did with Scott & Sizer. The difference we had was the football side also went pop because we’d spent money we didn’t have - ironically by mortgaging the Arena.

As long as DMPRFC kept their own finances in line then there should be no risk to the club other than where they then play their games - whether they can do that is another question.

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by quakersfan » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:21 am

Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:59 pm
It's not a case of being "buttered up" or not - obviously they'd have us because it means more income of top of the potential other income from the SV development.

The problem is that a) part of the plan is a 4g pitch, which the football league does not allow currently and maybe never will, and b) the fact that the FA insist that the football teams fixtures take precedence in a clash.

a) and b) are currently insurmountable.

Then there is also DRFC to consider, and our contract with them.
Good summary above. Sort those two problems then it’s either go there at no development cost or develop BM to anywhere between £2m-£3M which we just haven’t got. The decision would lie with a vote of SG members. All fairly academic at present with crowds of 1200 and the 500 seats rarely full. I suppose it all depends on how much the DFC board are planning with a vision for the future or happy to just plod along as nothing new has come out for two years.

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by Lallacab » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:34 am

quakersfan wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:21 am
Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:59 pm
It's not a case of being "buttered up" or not - obviously they'd have us because it means more income of top of the potential other income from the SV development.

The problem is that a) part of the plan is a 4g pitch, which the football league does not allow currently and maybe never will, and b) the fact that the FA insist that the football teams fixtures take precedence in a clash.

a) and b) are currently insurmountable.


Then there is also DRFC to consider, and our contract with them.
Good summary above. Sort those two problems then it’s either go there at no development cost or develop BM to anywhere between £2m-£3M which we just haven’t got. The decision would lie with a vote of SG members. All fairly academic at present with crowds of 1200 and the 500 seats rarely full. I suppose it all depends on how much the DFC board are planning with a vision for the future or happy to just plod along as nothing new has come out for two years.

It was my understanding that the football club would have its own ground as part of the SV which would negate the two issues mentioned above - I could have dreamt it though 😁😁

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by LoidLucan » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:07 am

All the other parties involved in this probably don't think we need any help in developing a suitable a appropriate stadium.... you know, them good old Darlo fans will just do it themselves, they've done it before and they'll do it again. They've seen that we've risen to every challenge thrown at us so far so all they need to do is allocate a chunk of land, set a rent, take other cuts from us and off we go. The fans will do the rest. The council can stump up a £2.1m guarantee for a cash-strapped rugby club but the footie fans can take care of business themselves.

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by Maurice_Peddelty » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:29 am

[/quote]

Good summary above. Sort those two problems then it’s either go there at no development cost or develop BM to anywhere between £2m-£3M which we just haven’t got. The decision would lie with a vote of SG members. All fairly academic at present with crowds of 1200 and the 500 seats rarely full. I suppose it all depends on how much the DFC board are planning with a vision for the future or happy to just plod along as nothing new has come out for two years.
[/quote]

Well, considering DFCSG has raised £150k from the fans and completed the work to extend the stand and upgrade the pitch, the work the Infrastructure Group has been doing in the background and the engagement DJ is having in respect of the SV, if you regard that to be 'plodding along' then so be it, you're entitled to an opinion.

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by AndyPark » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:54 am

Would anyone seriously want to go back to that soulless monstrosity?

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by H1987 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:14 am

divas wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:09 am
H1987 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:51 pm
divas - surely they're financially contracted to the stadium though, and financially liable for problems with it, and tied to consequences if they fail to pay up. They must be running to a significant loss. Presumably they can't just up sticks and walk away... so i'll stick by that projection.
That’s like saying we’re financially contracted to BM and would be liable if DRFC went bust. DMPRFC will have an agreement with the company that own the Arena and are likely pay a nominal rent to play at the Arena and that will be where the obligations stop. That’s the advantage of having them as two limited companies even if they’re owned by the same people.

If the company who owns the Arena were to default on the loan then ownership would pass to the lender who they’d then need to negotiate with if they wanted to continued playing there just like we did with Scott & Sizer. The difference we had was the football side also went pop because we’d spent money we didn’t have - ironically by mortgaging the Arena.

As long as DMPRFC kept their own finances in line then there should be no risk to the club other than where they then play their games - whether they can do that is another question.
It’s not really the same though. They will be financially tied in the sense that I would imagine they have some sort of fixed term arrangement on rent. Just as we do at Blackwell, if we renege on it, presumably moneys would be owed. So if they can’t afford the rent anymore, I doubt it’s a case of just walking away free of obligation. I wouldn’t rule this out as a possibility given their expenses. I sincerely doubt they’re on a small rent. Anything they are charged would ostensibly have to cover running costs as they’re the only tenants, and other events are few and few between.

Aren’t their first team also nominally professional these days? So they pay a squad which will be larger than ours, they have a rent presumably way above what we pay, and they get far smaller crowds, and play less games than we do, and charge less money. I don’t see how that can work out for them. Sure, as you say, maybe they can walk away from the Arena, but if they have the means to do that... i would be very doubtful. They will be tied in with it, and there would be financial implications to get out of it (I doubt they’re just on a rolling contract), and as has been pointed out, where else are they going to play? There’s no room at Blackwell now, with us there, and I believe there’s still serious ill feeling between the clubs.

Give it time. I’m not willing it (I don’t want anyone to lose their sports club, we all nearly knew how that felt), but it is inevitable. I’m sure they’ll restart again somewhere more modest, perhaps under a forcibly altered name...

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by lifetime darlo fan » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:15 am

AndyPark wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:54 am
Would anyone seriously want to go back to that soulless monstrosity?
Absolutely.

Anyone actually read the proposal listed on the council website? Here is a quote which I think should open some posters eye up regarding the popularity of rugby in the town;

"The DMP Women’s team is now in the Premiership, the DMP Men’s team is currently in a good position of the third tier (now in division 2) of the national rugby leagues with the ambition of gaining promotion to the Rugby Championship in future. More than 25 grass-root rugby teams are based at the Arena site. There is also a growing array of other sports clubs, schools and leisure stakeholders using the Arena site on a weekly basis".

Add to the above the successful business which already exist in the stadium (the gym and nursery 2 which spring to mind), I think DMP are doing a good job of sustaining themselves considering the size of their club and the development they have paid for for the training pitches. Personally I'd love for this development to go ahead even if our club decided against being involved. Its a super positive for the town

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by AndyPark » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:17 am

Personally, I wouldn't like to go back there.

That stadium was partly some of the reason we failed. Just can't comprehend how people will want to be back.

Just my opinion, willing to see what can be offered though.

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by H1987 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:19 am

With all due respect, that sort of grass level stuff in rugby (r.e. having 20 odd teams involved), is the equivalent of us hosting a seven a side league, and some kids league stuff. It's a social thing at that level. There's nothing wrong with that, it's not a bad thing, but it's no grand statement.

Even on a professional, first team level, they're playing in the third level of Rugby, and don't look like going up. Loughborough Uni are in the same division as them. There isn't the same sort of market for professional rugby like there is in football in this country.

All of the stuff they're talking about, by the way, can be done without maintaining the big, soulless plastic bowl. People don't want to watch teams play there. Less than 2,000 rattling around in there is just sad. Give me Blackwell Meadows, and all its problems, any day of the week. I'd sooner we went back to Bishop than the Arena.
Last edited by H1987 on Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by Lawman3 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:35 pm

I wonder if we will see the return of the Neasham Road Action Group. Or whether they consider Rugby fans to be more palatable to football fans.
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Re: Sporting Village

Post by LoidLucan » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:35 pm

Aye, remember Jan Berserk?

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theoriginalfatcat
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Re: Sporting Village

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:47 pm

AndyPark wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:54 am
Would anyone seriously want to go back to that soulless monstrosity?
96% no. But 100% no with a plastic pitch - that would finish me off completely :thumbdown:
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Re: Sporting Village

Post by 50 years » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:15 pm

From memory (which is not good to be honest), the offer was for land and floodlights to be provided, and I assume we would need to develop that over a few years therefore would potentially have to play at the arena for a few seasons while raising money?
Clearly we have people in charge who are looking at this in real detail (some excellent detail on initial ground work options were shown at the AGM), and we have to trust them to put final proposals to the fans when all the detail is available.
I could certainly put up with the arena for a few seasons if it meant we had our own ground and revenue opportunities ,(although assume we would pay some rent for the land).
I have even talked to a couple of lads who are 500 members and would be willing to club together for a box if it did happen (assuming boxes price is the same as the rugby).
This is one we just have to wait and see what actually is offerred and I trust the people in charge to get this right one way or the other.

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by LoidLucan » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:13 pm

It almost beggars belief that without one of us finding a great big money tree in their garden we would be able to buy our way out of BM, potentially pay back major grants, then develop a brand new stadium at the Arena from scratch, complete with clubhouse, changing rooms, stands and a decent pitch, and all the while try to maintain a competitive side which keeps people interested. And that doesn't even address potential problems with having priority over fixtures at the largely hated Arena while this shiny new stadium takes shape.

We've done fantastically well in our fundraising so far but this would massively dwarf anything we've attempted in the past and, to be honest, it would either involve taking on huge debts, if anyone fancies the risk, or a fairy-godmother appearing. Unless I'm missing some rabbits that could be pulled out of hats, it almost has the look of Mission Impossible.

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by 50 years » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:36 pm

Your right we are between a rock and a hard thing - maybe someone can pull a rabbit out of the hat either way. Let's just hope🤔

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by quakersfan » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:58 pm

Maurice_Peddelty wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:29 am
Good summary above. Sort those two problems then it’s either go there at no development cost or develop BM to anywhere between £2m-£3M which we just haven’t got. The decision would lie with a vote of SG members. All fairly academic at present with crowds of 1200 and the 500 seats rarely full. I suppose it all depends on how much the DFC board are planning with a vision for the future or happy to just plod along as nothing new has come out for two years.
[/quote]

Well, considering DFCSG has raised £150k from the fans and completed the work to extend the stand and upgrade the pitch, the work the Infrastructure Group has been doing in the background and the engagement DJ is having in respect of the SV, if you regard that to be 'plodding along' then so be it, you're entitled to an opinion.
[/quote]

Not a criticism of fans I myself put £600 into seats however raising £2m for BM when we have 16 years licence left is questionable. Also I’m sure infrastructure group doing a great job but chatting to Lee on the board at the match nothing is happening. The friends I go to the match with and we like to do hospitality when we can are talking for the first time in many years not getting a season ticket which is worrying, like I say we are plodding along. I’m not naive and if we had been at the top end all negative talk would be different but we need once and for all to decide where our long term future is so the club can plan for the future.

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Re: Sporting Village

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:05 pm

Do we have to pay back grants if sport is still played at B. Meadows? Which it will be as the rugby will stay.
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Re: Sporting Village

Post by quakersfan » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:13 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:05 pm
Do we have to pay back grants if sport is still played at B. Meadows? Which it will be as the rugby will stay.
According to DJ as long as football is played and there’s acccess and that football can be junior leagues it’s very unlikely FSIF would reclaim any funding plus their pitch funding was over a ten year period as well.

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