Netcafe - 14 December 2018

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al_quaker
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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by al_quaker » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:08 pm

Yarblockos wrote:
The Golden Hairclip wrote:Who knows what the future holds? Unearthing a gem that can be sold for decent money, a cup run, large donations etc.


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That doesn't sound like a sustainable, gowing club to me, more like a club hoping for the odd miracle to progress. We just sold a gem for decent money in the summer also. I guess that's the best hope we've got for now.
Yep - looks to me like the future is desperately trying to avoid relegation from the 6th division while hoping for an incredibly rare event to come to fruition :cry:

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loan_star
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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by loan_star » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:16 pm

Perhaps people will now realise why sacking Wright wasn't as straightforward as they thought it was. We have no money, simple as that.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by LoidLucan » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:16 pm

Sounds like everything has unravelled very quickly from a summer of relative optimism and successful fundraising to today's "we're on the brink" revelation. A large part of that is due to the fact that the budget spending was messed up by a poor management and we had zilch from the cups and falling attendances due to dreadful results took a major toll. That management issue underpins a lot of what has gone wrong. It's also astounding that the value of loans is only just being picked up given how it's an integral part of most clubs in NLN.

I think the level of DJ's disillusionment is very clear in this comment:

"Wanted – Darlington fan, volunteer, CEO experience, can provide personal finance guarantees to underpin club finances - prepared to work all hours, take all of the legal risk of a fragile business as registered director and expect vitriolic abuse to self and family – please apply in writing to DFC/DFCSG."

But all of this explains why getting rid of a management team that has failed so completely and utterly has not been on the agenda at this time even though at most clubs they would never have survived.

Depressing stuff indeed.
Last edited by LoidLucan on Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by princes town » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:23 pm

Becoming effectively a farm club to the big 3 is an interesting thought and similar to the American model of sport. At the end of the day if it is the only recruitment strategy that can help us be solvent then so be it.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by Darlogramps » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:36 pm

loan_star wrote:Perhaps people will now realise why sacking Wright wasn't as straightforward as they thought it was. We have no money, simple as that.
Meanwhile, keeping him is causing further damage, both financially from the lower attendances, and in triggering anger from fans towards the board.

We don't have the money to sack Wright, but keeping him will make the situation worse.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by robsraiders » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:37 am

Just got in and I think the Netcafe explains pretty well where we are and thank you for that.
A lot say about the terrible abuse suffered by certain people on Saturday, a utter disgrace and rightly so.
Many know the names of those involved, and no surprise to see none of them put forward a question tonight, bullies hiding it says a lot about them doesn't it ?

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by wizardofos » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:08 am

A rather bleak picture emerging from last night.
I didn't realise we had an overdraft facility - that must be a fairly recent arrangement.
It's ridiculous that an unpaid CEO should have to personally guarantee it. The upshot of this is that if decides enough is enough there will be no replacements coming forward.
If he does decide to leave, the only viable plan I can see is for the DFCSG to take over, and do away with the hybrid structure which includes non DFCSG Directors.
The supporters would have to put their hands in their pockets, once more, to raise whatever is required to eliminate the overdraft facility.
We could then get on with a fan owned and fan run Club and try to make it work.
I can't see any other way forward other than private ownership again, with all the legal complications to achieve that (apart from finding someone who wanted to own it).

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by Alfie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:26 am

wizardofos wrote:A rather bleak picture emerging from last night.
I didn't realise we had an overdraft facility - that must be a fairly recent arrangement.
It's ridiculous that an unpaid CEO should have to personally guarantee it. The upshot of this is that if decides enough is enough there will be no replacements coming forward.
If he does decide to leave, the only viable plan I can see is for the DFCSG to take over, and do away with the hybrid structure which includes non DFCSG Directors.
The supporters would have to put their hands in their pockets, once more, to raise whatever is required to eliminate the overdraft facility.
We could then get on with a fan owned and fan run Club and try to make it work.
I can't see any other way forward other than private ownership again, with all the legal complications to achieve that (apart from finding someone who wanted to own it).
I'm sure someone with all the legal info (spen?) will know all the facts, but as I understand it the football club has to be a limited company, rather than the setup that the DFCSG has. This means company directors, who have various legal responsibilities and in many cases like ours with little or no access to normal credit need to give personal financial guarantees to backup credit.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:33 am

A very sobering read.

We need to somehow get back behind this great club.

I missed a couple of matches recently due to other commitments, however I could have went to the Nuneaton match but the truth is that I couldn't be arsed. Judging by the attendance I was one of several hundred.

It's a difficult one isn't it, where you literally don't want to go but at the same time you know you're strangling the club by not going?

The board literally do have the worst job in the world and I hope that everybody who was screaming at them last week now understand.

Sometimes a crisis to fortifies the fan base and let's be under no illusion we're in crisis - For those that always go to matches I say brilliant support as usual, for those of us who have been skipping matches or not going at all - we are the only ones who can make a difference at this point.

Let's get 2,000 v York and take it into the new year. Increased crowds are the only way we can start to dig ourselves out of this hole.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by LoidLucan » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:02 am

The background to much of this is a poor managerial appointment 14 months ago reflected in the failure to win matches , failure to bring in any cup cash and waning interest in the club. It's great calling for unity and for people to rally round but the fact is when you rack up a record of 2 wins in 16 home matches the waverers are just not going to attend.

TW had the chance to get it right in the summer when he was backed, he failed badly and the club is paying the price now. We can mull over our place in the football world, ownership models and the state of the ground all we want but the central point is we have a poor manager who can't win matches, people don't want to attend and our income suffers badly. And when the waverers see that what we do in response is to let the manager finish what he started as we hurtle towards the Evo Stik then it'd hardly surprising they choose something else to spend their hard-earned cash on.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by al_quaker » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:12 am

Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:A very sobering read.

We need to somehow get back behind this great club.

I missed a couple of matches recently due to other commitments, however I could have went to the Nuneaton match but the truth is that I couldn't be arsed. Judging by the attendance I was one of several hundred.

It's a difficult one isn't it, where you literally don't want to go but at the same time you know you're strangling the club by not going?

The board literally do have the worst job in the world and I hope that everybody who was screaming at them last week now understand.

Sometimes a crisis to fortifies the fan base and let's be under no illusion we're in crisis - For those that always go to matches I say brilliant support as usual, for those of us who have been skipping matches or not going at all - we are the only ones who can make a difference at this point.

Let's get 2,000 v York and take it into the new year. Increased crowds are the only way we can start to dig ourselves out of this hole.
It's difficult, as football is a form of entertainment. Is it entertaining attending Darlington matches at the moment? You get a terrible view, although that might be a blessing in disguise as it means you can't see the shambles on the pitch very well. I can't remember the last time I really enjoyed a home match, and came away with that buzz that only football can provide. Blyth maybe? Which actually shows it's not all about winning. But rock and a hard place sums it up - s*** ground, a managerial appointment which has completely not worked out to date, and no money to do anything about it.

But on the flip side, like you say, the club needs people through the gate, otherwise we're very quickly going to become one of those non-league clubs bumbling along which nobody outside of a select few really knows about

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by Darlo-and-Back » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:16 am

Couple of points from last night. The directors have run the club at a deficit and caused the need for loans and personal guarantees. They authorised the big wage earners have come in over the last two summers. Secondly, there appears no public record of winding up orders against the club which would appear in the London Gazette, unless anyone else can find them.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:42 am

Seems like the time has come to just try and be stable for a season or two and gradually progress off and on the field bearing in mind the speed with which we have risen since 2012.Building the academy for starters and let's see what options we have either at BM or the Sports Hub to the benefit of us and nobody else.In the meantime would it be possible to review the ridiculous £65k rent we pay to the rugby boys because if we do in fact relocate to the Arena they simply cannot survive without us.Surely they must be concerned that this may be a reality.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by al_quaker » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:43 am

QUAKERMAN2 wrote:Seems like the time has come to just try and be stable for a season or two and gradually progress off and on the field bearing in mind the speed with which we have risen since 2012.Building the academy for starters and let's see what options we have either at BM or the Sports Hub to the benefit of us and nobody else.In the meantime would it be possible to review the ridiculous £65k rent we pay to the rugby boys because if we do in fact relocate to the Arena they simply cannot survive without us.Surely they must be concerned that this may be a reality.

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It was stated last night that rent is £34k

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by Undercovered » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:50 am

Darlo-and-Back wrote:Couple of points from last night. The directors have run the club at a deficit and caused the need for loans and personal guarantees. They authorised the big wage earners have come in over the last two summers. Secondly, there appears no public record of winding up orders against the club which would appear in the London Gazette, unless anyone else can find them.
This is along the lines of my thinking. Nothing in the Gazette re winding up orders so maybe things have been over embellished a little. Whilst I totally understand the problems in running a business where the income can fluctuate massively depending on how well the team is doing and your major costs are pretty fixed in terms of player contracts therein lies the skill of a CEO/ directort manage this effectively.

This can only be done by creating a budget that has some contingency built in, for far too long now it seems that revenue forecasts have been inflated to support a playing budget that’s seen to be “competitive” rather than being slightly pessimistic on the revenue forecast, or taking 10% out of the total revenue forecast as a slush fund. To budget to spend 100% (or more) of your income when you have no headroom in the business seems madness.

Hopefully given DJ’s comments of a reduced playing budget next season this is the approach that will be taken. Until then we won’t truly know what our true position is. Only then can we know what level of football we can support under the current model.

On a slightly more positive note there are a few opportunities to grow the business in the coming seasons with the academy, anticipated commercial revenue increase as the result of a the commercial manager appointment and the gradual ending of the 500 club membership. Once those are fully realised we may have enough funds to compete in this league, until then we have to try and scrap to stay in the division.

I believe a lack of a clear strategy other than throw as much money at the budget as we can to get us up the league as quick as possible is now coming back to bite us on the arse. I looked at FCUM who although they’re currently struggling in this league managed to build a brand new stadium which is an asset for them -I don’t think it was any coincidence they missed out on promotion from the league below for so many years losing in the play-offs. They simply couldn’t afford to go up at that time whilst funding was being sorted for the stadium and needed crowds to hold up rather than being promoted, struggling and crowds dropping.

I wonder what the impact would have been on our crowds had we followed a similar plan.
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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by The Golden Hairclip » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:50 am

al_quaker wrote:
QUAKERMAN2 wrote:Seems like the time has come to just try and be stable for a season or two and gradually progress off and on the field bearing in mind the speed with which we have risen since 2012.Building the academy for starters and let's see what options we have either at BM or the Sports Hub to the benefit of us and nobody else.In the meantime would it be possible to review the ridiculous £65k rent we pay to the rugby boys because if we do in fact relocate to the Arena they simply cannot survive without us.Surely they must be concerned that this may be a reality.

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It was stated last night that rent is £34k
People have continued to quote the figure of £65K after someone posted “our rent is £65K FACT”. If you’re going to use the wording FACT then you’d better be right, otherwise you’re simply damaging the club by putting out misinformation. I hope you feel suitably embarrassed now.


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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by Vodka_Vic » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:50 am

The starting reality is that for the medium term we will be a NLN/Evostik club given DJ's eye-watering figures. I say Evo-Stik as with poor management this is where we will be. For me, first thing is not to renew TW's contract if it does run out in April. With a better manager who can play the loan market and get a team to play as well as the sum of its parts, we might be a Curzon Ashton I.e mid to lower reaches of NLN.
When the 500 club season tickets have run out in a couple of years, then 300 people paying £200 approx will add £60,000 to the budget. Let's say that makes a basic playing budget of 210,000, we'll have to top that up with BTB to 250k plus. Those won't be the numbers for the next 1/2 seasons though. Difficult times until 2021. After that a 250k budget is our reality.
DJ said that as a fan-owned club in May in his end of season interview that we could get up to the Conference but 50% of the fan base would need to contribute to BTB, not just 33% as it is currently, which by my basic maths is around 140k. That's to GET there, not stay. It's clear now that that's unlikely.
Let's do the maths of getting infrastructure so we can produce our own budget from off-pitch revenue. It sounds like the SV will be better suited to this. That will cost 5 million. Staying at BM will cost 2 million. Money to be raised by fans. Let's just analyse this for the moment. 5 million means 2,000 fans contributing 2,500 each. 2 million means 2,000 fans contributing 1,000 each. That's not going to happen either.
There's only 2 (possibly 3) ways that we can grow as a club, I.e. Get the 2 or preferably 5 million. 1. A sugar daddy (with possibly no assets). 2. A sell on from some players. Looking at the maths, £2 million would be a player going for a transfer fee of 20 million with a 10 percent sell-on clause to us. Not impossible in these times of silly money, but a long way down the line. When I said above that we have possibly no assets, the only thing I could think of that could entice a sugar daddy here would be if we guaranteed them a certain percentage of any sell-on clauses from our Academy or club. To be honest though, we'd have to be half-way towards being like Crewe to make that much money.
The 3rd possible way is Euromillions. Uncovered lottery syndicate, or DFCSG lottery syndicate anyone? 500 fans at £1 per week, who knows? If anyone has any better ideas, then feel free to contribute too.
(Hope you enjoyed the paragraphs Quaker 85).
By the way. How did FCUM fund their stadium?

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by The Golden Hairclip » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:55 am

Don’t forget that the amount of finance raised by the fans for ground development would most likely be match funded. So we don’t need to raise the full amounts quoted.


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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by Vodka_Vic » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:02 am

The Golden Hairclip wrote:Don’t forget that the amount of finance raised by the fans for ground development would most likely be match funded. So we don’t need to raise the full amounts quoted.


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There must be a maximum though? Would we really get 50% of 5 million?

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:03 am

al_quaker wrote:
QUAKERMAN2 wrote:Seems like the time has come to just try and be stable for a season or two and gradually progress off and on the field bearing in mind the speed with which we have risen since 2012.Building the academy for starters and let's see what options we have either at BM or the Sports Hub to the benefit of us and nobody else.In the meantime would it be possible to review the ridiculous £65k rent we pay to the rugby boys because if we do in fact relocate to the Arena they simply cannot survive without us.Surely they must be concerned that this may be a reality.

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It was stated last night that rent is £34k
Which isn't a ridiculous amount considering we were paying Bishop 27k.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:08 am

Vodka_Vic wrote:
The Golden Hairclip wrote:Don’t forget that the amount of finance raised by the fans for ground development would most likely be match funded. So we don’t need to raise the full amounts quoted.


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There must be a maximum though? Would we really get 50% of 5 million?
No.

The maximum you can get at this level is 250k.

In the National it's 400k.

In League 2 it's 800k.

But as we've already had 250k we can't get another 250k until 5 years has passed. So right now, at this level we can get a grand total of 0k matched funding to do up the ground.

So for example if we got promoted to the conference we could get 400k - 250k we've already had which means 150k. That's not going to make a dent in £2m or £5m.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by The Golden Hairclip » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:08 am

Vodka_Vic wrote:
The Golden Hairclip wrote:Don’t forget that the amount of finance raised by the fans for ground development would most likely be match funded. So we don’t need to raise the full amounts quoted.


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There must be a maximum though? Would we really get 50% of 5 million?
Good point. There are maximums with the fsif but there are other funding streams available. Maybe I’m being optimistic with 50% but the fans won’t need to pay the full amounts quoted.


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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by Ghost_Of_1883 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:10 am

The Golden Hairclip wrote:
Vodka_Vic wrote:
The Golden Hairclip wrote:Don’t forget that the amount of finance raised by the fans for ground development would most likely be match funded. So we don’t need to raise the full amounts quoted.


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There must be a maximum though? Would we really get 50% of 5 million?
Good point. There are maximums with the fsif but there are other funding streams available.


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Such as? If so, then why haven't we already used these other funding streams?

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:21 am

The Golden Hairclip wrote:
al_quaker wrote:
QUAKERMAN2 wrote:Seems like the time has come to just try and be stable for a season or two and gradually progress off and on the field bearing in mind the speed with which we have risen since 2012.Building the academy for starters and let's see what options we have either at BM or the Sports Hub to the benefit of us and nobody else.In the meantime would it be possible to review the ridiculous £65k rent we pay to the rugby boys because if we do in fact relocate to the Arena they simply cannot survive without us.Surely they must be concerned that this may be a reality.

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It was stated last night that rent is £34k
People have continued to quote the figure of £65K after someone posted “our rent is £65K FACT”. If you’re going to use the wording FACT then you’d better be right, otherwise you’re simply damaging the club by putting out misinformation. I hope you feel suitably embarrassed now.


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The £65k was mentioned by a number of people, several of which seemed genuine posters but £34k is a very decent rent IMO so happy to take back what I stated.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by lo36789 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:26 am

FCUM are pretty crippled by debt from their stadium. It’s lead to all sort of boardroom issues in recent years. Look at their recent league positions against their attendances.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by divas » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:27 am

It’s in the accounts isn’t it? My understand was always that rent was around £35K and the other £30K was a cost of service we pay to the rugby club. Depending on what agenda you have will depend on what number you want to use.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by The Golden Hairclip » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:27 am

Ghost_Of_1883 wrote:
The Golden Hairclip wrote:
Vodka_Vic wrote:
The Golden Hairclip wrote:Don’t forget that the amount of finance raised by the fans for ground development would most likely be match funded. So we don’t need to raise the full amounts quoted.


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There must be a maximum though? Would we really get 50% of 5 million?
Good point. There are maximums with the fsif but there are other funding streams available.


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Such as? If so, then why haven't we already used these other funding streams?
One example I can think of is funding from the Tees Valley Combined Authority.


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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by tdk1 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:42 am

Last night was very sobering, and I agree with all dj's points about the need to rein in expectation, adjust the balance of loans to permanent transfers, building in contingency etc.

My problem is and always has been that tw has wasted the budget he had, and not got the team playing to its capabilities. Last night probably softened my view towards him a bit, admittedly, but I still don't think he's the man to take us forward.

I think it's very important we back Dj though.

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:44 am

divas wrote:It’s in the accounts isn’t it? My understand was always that rent was around £35K and the other £30K was a cost of service we pay to the rugby club. Depending on what agenda you have will depend on what number you want to use.
Cost of service? Utility bills, catering,groundsman...seems a significant figure to me.Obviously this is where the £65k originated from but still a large sum to absorb

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Re: Netcafe - 14 December 2018

Post by HarrytheQuaker » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:00 am

al_quaker wrote:
QUAKERMAN2 wrote:Seems like the time has come to just try and be stable for a season or two and gradually progress off and on the field bearing in mind the speed with which we have risen since 2012.Building the academy for starters and let's see what options we have either at BM or the Sports Hub to the benefit of us and nobody else.In the meantime would it be possible to review the ridiculous £65k rent we pay to the rugby boys because if we do in fact relocate to the Arena they simply cannot survive without us.Surely they must be concerned that this may be a reality.

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It was stated last night that rent is £34k
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