Its here the investment

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m62exile
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Re: Its here the investment

Post by m62exile » Wed May 10, 2017 10:33 am

spen666 wrote:
m62exile wrote:
spen666 wrote:
m62exile wrote:.....

I personally thought his actions from the Spring of 2011 were pretty despicable, he was a man who had lost interest and grown tired of throwing big, big money down a black hole without any reasonable prospect of that hole being filled. Going missing when we were trying to contact him and reluctance to do a deal showed that he put cutting his losses first and DFC last.

When he first came I think his intentions were probably worthy. He was absolutely conned by Houghton and by the time he'd salvaged us from that particular administration the season was with us, he had a s*** squad due to the transfer embargo and then unfortunately compounded it with a disastrous managerial appointment. Before he'd got his head around the job at hand we were relegated and immediately lost the biggest source of income we had. Suddenly the numbers didn't add up any more.

....


This is all reasonable and I have sympathy with Singh up until the key point you fail to cover - namely his shafting the club by apparently refusing to sign over the football share

I am intrigued into his explanation for this.
The first sentence you've quoted covers this and the other actions he took at this time.

It doesn't because the retaining the share was a deliberate action and separate from his running out of money.

He put the club into administration and then failed to hand the most important asset of the club to the administrators and lied that he had handed it to his solicitors.

That is far far more than losing his money and his interest in the club. I can fully understand his losing money & interest in the club. I sympathise with him over that. It does not in anyway explain his subsequent deliberate actions in refusing to provide the football share to the administrators. It seems to me to be a prima facie case of theft.


The victims being the fans who bought the football club
Wouldn't you describe those actions as despicable?

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by spen666 » Wed May 10, 2017 10:50 am

m62exile wrote: .....wouldn't you describe those actions as despicable?

I would describe them as prima facie criminal.

lo36789
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Re: Its here the investment

Post by lo36789 » Wed May 10, 2017 11:25 am

I really think you should avoid the legal talk Spen - doesn't seem to be your game much.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by spen666 » Wed May 10, 2017 11:30 am

lo36789 wrote:I really think you should avoid the legal talk Spen - doesn't seem to be your game much.

Can you translate that please?

BUSHEAD
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Re: Its here the investment

Post by BUSHEAD » Wed May 10, 2017 11:34 am

spen666 wrote:
lo36789 wrote:I really think you should avoid the legal talk Spen - doesn't seem to be your game much.

Can you translate that please?
Certainly - Fuck off Spen

Your welcome
Think before posting

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loan_star
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Re: Its here the investment

Post by loan_star » Wed May 10, 2017 11:39 am

Beano wrote:
QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
LoidLucan wrote:Some people seem to have already decided that he intends to own the club outright and then do it harm... and all before hearing what he has to say. One step at a time, ask the questions and vote on what's being put before us.
Totally agree, Raj deserves to be heard before people pre judge his motives, for gods sake give him a chance to explain why he wants to come back and then vote.
He deserves bugger all. We owe him nothing, and he has it all to prove after burning his bridges previously.
Exactly, so whats wrong with hearing him out properly?

onewayup
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Re: Its here the investment

Post by onewayup » Wed May 10, 2017 11:42 am

Don't forget we as a fan owned club paid off Singh debt to the tune of 50/60 thousand to players who accepted our C.V.A where he did not.so he owes the club big time.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by comeondarlo » Wed May 10, 2017 11:44 am

loan_star wrote:
Beano wrote:
QUAKERMAN2 wrote:
LoidLucan wrote:Some people seem to have already decided that he intends to own the club outright and then do it harm... and all before hearing what he has to say. One step at a time, ask the questions and vote on what's being put before us.
Totally agree, Raj deserves to be heard before people pre judge his motives, for gods sake give him a chance to explain why he wants to come back and then vote.
He deserves bugger all. We owe him nothing, and he has it all to prove after burning his bridges previously.
Exactly, so whats wrong with hearing him out properly?
I'm glad you're about loan star!
I owe you a big apology when I first read of the rumour.
Tbh I still not sure I believe it tbh, lol!

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loan_star
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Re: Its here the investment

Post by loan_star » Wed May 10, 2017 11:51 am

comeondarlo wrote: I'm glad you're about loan star!
I owe you a big apology when I first read of the rumour.
Tbh I still not sure I believe it tbh, lol!
When I first posted on here about it, thats all it was, a rumour. I was kind of hoping it was the wrong end of the stick!

Another thing to think about, if all Singh is after is the arena and the land around it then why buy DFC? I'm sure theres a rugby club that is in need of some extra money who already own the arena! Why put himself through all this hassle with people who think he's the devil reincarnated when he could just go direct!!

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MKDarlo
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Re: its here

Post by MKDarlo » Wed May 10, 2017 11:52 am

Mr_Tibbs wrote:
No, we're a Community Benefit Society. The CIC merged with the Trust and the Supporters Club to form the DFCSG (the CBS). We can't take anything out without it being in accordance with the rules, which are in accordance with the Co-operative and Community Benefits Societies Act.

There's a link to our rules are here if anyone wants to read them...

http://dfcsg.co.uk/aboutus
My apologies - i was behind with the terminology.

Rule 96 clearly allows for a change in the legal construct owning the CBS while Rules 100 & 101 deal with dissolution of the CBS. Considering Rule 8 ( the asset lock) I guess the question is are what are the assets of the CBS and what are the assets of a hypothetically separate football club?

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Paul2525
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Re: Its here the investment

Post by Paul2525 » Wed May 10, 2017 12:19 pm

If he was that bothered about DFC he should have been willing to put funds in or offered, when we were in NL, what has he to gain from investing now..

Is it a coincidence that he has appeared now we have the playing name of Darlington FC back after 5 years?

I have no idea what RS is up to here, if he wanted to right wrongs he could of offered financial help much sooner.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by tezza » Wed May 10, 2017 12:21 pm

STEPHEN_1211 wrote:
Robbie Painter wrote:
STEPHEN_1211 wrote:How much is the club worth? How much would buy 51% all we actually own are the stands and concrete! What assets do we have for our money? He would be investing in something that only one way one can make money youth football? Or Blackwell hotel? Have we forgiven the council for what they did to us? We all seem to pin it on one person!

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What did the council do to us?
What has Blackwell hotel got to do with DFC?
1) they took a percentage of money off us due to the land around the arena at the time.

2) no concerts etc yet now Morden can as they are nearly busy!

3) Blackwell hotel can be used to make money and land which I wouldn't be surprised if something happened on there!

4) you only see council when something good is happening!

Anymore? Where is Jenny chapman now?


Blackwell Grange is currently up for sale @ £1.2m. Similarly I think there is provisional housing planning permission on part of the old Blackwell golf course (RS has become a major local property developer).
Not certain how this sits/fits with DFC/DRFC , certainly would be of interest to any RS Consortium.
Jenny Chapman: To busy trying to keep her job.

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Re: its here

Post by Maurice_Peddelty » Wed May 10, 2017 12:23 pm

MKDarlo wrote:
Mr_Tibbs wrote:
No, we're a Community Benefit Society. The CIC merged with the Trust and the Supporters Club to form the DFCSG (the CBS). We can't take anything out without it being in accordance with the rules, which are in accordance with the Co-operative and Community Benefits Societies Act.

There's a link to our rules are here if anyone wants to read them...

http://dfcsg.co.uk/aboutus
My apologies - i was behind with the terminology.

Rule 96 clearly allows for a change in the legal construct owning the CBS while Rules 100 & 101 deal with dissolution of the CBS. Considering Rule 8 ( the asset lock) I guess the question is are what are the assets of the CBS and what are the assets of a hypothetically separate football club?
DFCSG's assets are listed in their accounts, which at 30 June 2016 stood at £168k, of which £161k was listed as 'investments', which is shares in Darlington FC.

As you say Rule 96 allows a change in construct. However, there is the matter of the Community Shares to think about - they are unique to a CBS. So if DFCSG was to change into something other than a CBS, I would assume the Community Shares would become immediately repayable. Also there is the not so small matter that it would require a minimum of a 50% turn-out in membership and a 75% majority in favour of a conversion to something else. In the case of a dissolution, there is a similar voting requirement and all of the assets and would have to be transferred to a charitable organisation within the community.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by eek » Wed May 10, 2017 12:27 pm

m62exile wrote:
spen666 wrote:
m62exile wrote:
spen666 wrote:
m62exile wrote:.....

I personally thought his actions from the Spring of 2011 were pretty despicable, he was a man who had lost interest and grown tired of throwing big, big money down a black hole without any reasonable prospect of that hole being filled. Going missing when we were trying to contact him and reluctance to do a deal showed that he put cutting his losses first and DFC last.

When he first came I think his intentions were probably worthy. He was absolutely conned by Houghton and by the time he'd salvaged us from that particular administration the season was with us, he had a s*** squad due to the transfer embargo and then unfortunately compounded it with a disastrous managerial appointment. Before he'd got his head around the job at hand we were relegated and immediately lost the biggest source of income we had. Suddenly the numbers didn't add up any more.

....


This is all reasonable and I have sympathy with Singh up until the key point you fail to cover - namely his shafting the club by apparently refusing to sign over the football share

I am intrigued into his explanation for this.
The first sentence you've quoted covers this and the other actions he took at this time.

It doesn't because the retaining the share was a deliberate action and separate from his running out of money.

He put the club into administration and then failed to hand the most important asset of the club to the administrators and lied that he had handed it to his solicitors.

That is far far more than losing his money and his interest in the club. I can fully understand his losing money & interest in the club. I sympathise with him over that. It does not in anyway explain his subsequent deliberate actions in refusing to provide the football share to the administrators. It seems to me to be a prima facie case of theft.


The victims being the fans who bought the football club
Wouldn't you describe those actions as despicable?
Personally I would call it unprofessional.... RS let his anger / frustration / annoyance override what he should and could have done..

I also have other examples of RS demonstrating the same flaws elsewhere - personally I will be voting No...

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by al_quaker » Wed May 10, 2017 12:28 pm

Paul2525 wrote:If he was that bothered about DFC he should have been willing to put funds in or offered, when we were in NL, what has he to gain from investing now..

Is it a coincidence that he has appeared now we have the playing name of Darlington FC back after 5 years?

I have no idea what RS is up to here, if he wanted to right wrongs he could of offered financial help much sooner.
Again playing devils advocate, 5 years is obviously a long enough period of time for some peoples feelings towards him to lessen. Next to nobody would have wanted his money in 2012, but clearly there are a substantial number of fans open to the idea now. Whether they're in the majority or not, time will tell.

Plus, we've now reached a level where external investment is perhaps on the verge of being essential if we wish to progress further up the pyramid, at least in the short term. In previous seasons this hasn't really been the case. Although we haven't consistently lived within our means, living within our means still would have meant a team near the top of the table, which probably wouldn't be the case for the foreseeable future with a reduced/affordable budget - the suggestion of which prompted our manager to start this whole idea off.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by tezza » Wed May 10, 2017 12:44 pm

I've gone back to the Community Shares release prospectus and see that the share issue is for £193,000 worth of shares all of which are to aid the purchase of a new pitch and covered seating. The boosted playing budget does not appear to buy you any shares as it is not referred to in the prospectus. So why would anyone, RS included, get any shares from putting money into the playing budget? And if this was decreed as possible my our chairman - when did he get the OK from DFCSG to extend the issue of shares? The reference in the statement only suggests that there is a need to consult the DFCSG membership on the size of the investment, there is no mention that there will be any consultation with DFCSG over what would be an extension of the share issue. And if this is the intention - then what of the other investors to the playing budget? Do they now get shares as well? Are the goalposts (and the pitch) being moved so very much to accommodate RS only? If I wanted to invest £40,000 wouldn't I be told to put into raising money for the ground improvements. Why isn't RS being told to do this?

A very valid and relative point. One which DFCSG will have to defend. Those that have pledged were clear it was not a route to community shares.

I can understand given the timeframes etc. why he opted to place his 30 pieces of silver into the BTB Fund, surely he must have known by asking for shares he was exacerbating the hostility.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by tezza » Wed May 10, 2017 12:53 pm

One thing we need to be alive to. DRFC Committee and Mr Wilkinson will be in there somewhere, lurking in the long grass.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by tezza » Wed May 10, 2017 1:15 pm

Blackwell Grange is currently up for sale @ £1.2m. Similarly I think there is provisional housing planning permission on part of the old Blackwell golf course (RS has become a major local property developer).
Not certain how this sits/fits with DFC/DRFC , certainly would be of interest to any RS Consortium.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by lo36789 » Wed May 10, 2017 1:17 pm

tezza wrote:A very valid and relative point. One which DFCSG will have to defend. Those that have pledged were clear it was not a route to community shares.
No it isn't RS has bought shares in a different entity to what the Community Shares were offered.

It is a separate transaction entirely. All the communication has said is that if he buys these shares the money will be directed to support the BTB fund. Whether that is at his request or not I have no idea.

He hasn't said "I want to put £40k in BTB, I want shares for that money" - he has said "I want shares" and either he has said "I want my money to go into the playing budget" or the club has identified that the easiest route to funnel that money is reduce the burden on the BTB as ultimately that wasn't a all or nothing pledge.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by Yarblockos » Wed May 10, 2017 1:27 pm

lo36789 wrote:
tezza wrote:A very valid and relative point. One which DFCSG will have to defend. Those that have pledged were clear it was not a route to community shares.
No it isn't RS has bought shares in a different entity to what the Community Shares were offered.

It is a separate transaction entirely. All the communication has said is that if he buys these shares the money will be directed to support the BTB fund. Whether that is at his request or not I have no idea.

He hasn't said "I want to put £40k in BTB, I want shares for that money" - he has said "I want shares" and either he has said "I want my money to go into the playing budget" or the club has identified that the easiest route to funnel that money is reduce the burden on the BTB as ultimately that wasn't a all or nothing pledge.
Isn't the BTB appeal a direct debit contribution with monthly payments spread across a year? I'm not sure how anyone could make a one off 40K contribution to it.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by Quakerz » Wed May 10, 2017 1:29 pm

Yarblockos wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
tezza wrote:A very valid and relative point. One which DFCSG will have to defend. Those that have pledged were clear it was not a route to community shares.
No it isn't RS has bought shares in a different entity to what the Community Shares were offered.

It is a separate transaction entirely. All the communication has said is that if he buys these shares the money will be directed to support the BTB fund. Whether that is at his request or not I have no idea.

He hasn't said "I want to put £40k in BTB, I want shares for that money" - he has said "I want shares" and either he has said "I want my money to go into the playing budget" or the club has identified that the easiest route to funnel that money is reduce the burden on the BTB as ultimately that wasn't a all or nothing pledge.
Isn't the BTB appeal a direct debit contribution with monthly payments spread across a year? I'm not sure how anyone could make a one off 40K contribution to it.
You can make one off donations, weekly direct debits, monthly direct debits, you could even do all three if you have plenty of money and want to.

I decided on a monthly D/D.
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“Everybody knows where that club is going now, so I’m out of the way. They can carry on, it’s their club, they can keep it." - Raj Singh, 2017

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by Mr_Tibbs » Wed May 10, 2017 1:29 pm

tezza wrote:I've gone back to the Community Shares release prospectus and see that the share issue is for £193,000 worth of shares all of which are to aid the purchase of a new pitch and covered seating. The boosted playing budget does not appear to buy you any shares as it is not referred to in the prospectus. So why would anyone, RS included, get any shares from putting money into the playing budget? And if this was decreed as possible my our chairman - when did he get the OK from DFCSG to extend the issue of shares? The reference in the statement only suggests that there is a need to consult the DFCSG membership on the size of the investment, there is no mention that there will be any consultation with DFCSG over what would be an extension of the share issue. And if this is the intention - then what of the other investors to the playing budget? Do they now get shares as well? Are the goalposts (and the pitch) being moved so very much to accommodate RS only? If I wanted to invest £40,000 wouldn't I be told to put into raising money for the ground improvements. Why isn't RS being told to do this?

A very valid and relative point. One which DFCSG will have to defend. Those that have pledged were clear it was not a route to community shares.

I can understand given the timeframes etc. why he opted to place his 30 pieces of silver into the BTB Fund, surely he must have known by asking for shares he was exacerbating the hostility.
The Community Shares and the DFC Shares (which is what Raj wants) are different things. The DFC shareholders need to vote on this and, as the majority shareholder, the DFCSG Board need a mandate from the membership to tell them which way to vote.

As for the legitimacy of how he's seeking to acquire equity then I'll leave it up to any DFCSG members who've put into Boost the Budget to feel aggrieved or not (and vote accordingly), that our collective £40k isn't worth the same as Raj Singh's £40k.
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Re: Its here the investment

Post by Mr_Tibbs » Wed May 10, 2017 1:33 pm

Mr_Tibbs wrote:As for the legitimacy of how he's seeking to acquire equity then I'll leave it up to any DFCSG members who've put into Boost the Budget to feel aggrieved or not (and vote accordingly), that our collective £40k isn't worth the same as Raj Singh's £40k.
Ours is actually worth a lot more, when you think about it. :shock:
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Re: Its here the investment

Post by Spyman » Wed May 10, 2017 1:37 pm

Presumably he is offering to buy £40k worth of share in the club.

That £40k will be used towards the playing budget so the amount needed from the BTB fund drops by £40k without his £40k making up part of the fund.

So basically we had '£xk' in the playing budget which Martin Gray wants to supplement with £80k. We now have £x+40k in the playing budget so we don't need to raise as much to supplement Martin Gray's demands.

£x was made up of gate receipts, sponsorship etc. It is now potentially made up of gate receipts, sponsorship, Raj Singh's share purchase etc.

Season ticket holders don't expect shares in return for their contribution to the playing budget - neither should donors to the BTB fund.
Last edited by Spyman on Wed May 10, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by lo36789 » Wed May 10, 2017 1:38 pm

Mr_Tibbs wrote:As for the legitimacy of how he's seeking to acquire equity then I'll leave it up to any DFCSG members who've put into Boost the Budget to feel aggrieved or not (and vote accordingly), that our collective £40k isn't worth the same as Raj Singh's £40k.
Ok that is a bit erm manipulative. There is a big difference ultimately the BTB was designed to put a small regular amount "the cost of a cup of coffee per week".

It's not about the value of the investments being worth the same. The fact is RS wants shares in the club - the fact is it has just simply been announced that when he does that the money from that share purchase will be put in BTB.

He has not 'wanted' to put £40k into BTB and the only way to do this is via taking shares. Anyone at anytime can donate money to the club if they are that way inclined stick it in Mary's bucket...

Spyman probably has put it more succinctly than I.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by tezza » Wed May 10, 2017 2:08 pm

Quakerz wrote:
Yarblockos wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
tezza wrote:A very valid and relative point. One which DFCSG will have to defend. Those that have pledged were clear it was not a route to community shares.
No it isn't RS has bought shares in a different entity to what the Community Shares were offered.

It is a separate transaction entirely. All the communication has said is that if he buys these shares the money will be directed to support the BTB fund. Whether that is at his request or not I have no idea.

He hasn't said "I want to put £40k in BTB, I want shares for that money" - he has said "I want shares" and either he has said "I want my money to go into the playing budget" or the club has identified that the easiest route to funnel that money is reduce the burden on the BTB as ultimately that wasn't a all or nothing pledge.
Isn't the BTB appeal a direct debit contribution with monthly payments spread across a year? I'm not sure how anyone could make a one off 40K contribution to it.
You can make one off donations, weekly direct debits, monthly direct debits, you could even do all three if you have plenty of money and want to.

I decided on a monthly D/D.
Q: Were you expecting to gain any shares from your DD. ??

I have invested in all of the pitches to date, however was waivering on the BTB Fund.
As things currently stand I will not be donating to that particular fund, not entirely due to RS who I think we should take his initial £40k then consider any future investment on its merits. More a as a consequence of loss of trust in MG for how he has conducted this public debacle.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by roadrunner » Wed May 10, 2017 2:51 pm

tezza wrote:Blackwell Grange is currently up for sale @ £1.2m. Similarly I think there is provisional housing planning permission on part of the old Blackwell golf course (RS has become a major local property developer).
Not certain how this sits/fits with DFC/DRFC , certainly would be of interest to any RS Consortium.
Houses for players which David Hodgson is going to bring from abroad which Garry pallister will be in charge off,
The investors RS head man,
Steve mclaren seeing over football matters for RS
David Hodgson bringing players from abroad to sell on and Martin Grays advisor.
Looking at 2 sites BLACKWELL and the land across the road and the arena and land to build multiple all weather pitches and develop the football academy double the size of the aycliffe site.

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by Spyman » Wed May 10, 2017 2:55 pm

roadrunner wrote:
tezza wrote:Blackwell Grange is currently up for sale @ £1.2m. Similarly I think there is provisional housing planning permission on part of the old Blackwell golf course (RS has become a major local property developer).
Not certain how this sits/fits with DFC/DRFC , certainly would be of interest to any RS Consortium.
Houses for players which David Hodgson is going to bring from abroad which Garry pallister will be in charge off,
The investors RS head man,
Steve mclaren seeing over football matters for RS
David Hodgson bringing players from abroad to sell on and Martin Grays advisor.
Looking at 2 sites BLACKWELL and the land across the road and the arena and land to build multiple all weather pitches and develop the football academy double the size of the aycliffe site.
So you are suggesting that David Hodgson is the man that Gray thinks he can learn a lot about coaching from? Or McClaren?

If the above is the proposal then it would be a no from me. Basically Darlington FC becoming a vehicle for an agent and an independent football academy to make money.
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by al_quaker » Wed May 10, 2017 3:54 pm

Speaking of Hodgy, he's backing Raj (with the slightly less than ringing endorsement of "his is the only offer on the table")

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Re: Its here the investment

Post by tezza » Wed May 10, 2017 3:54 pm

Like most everybody else, I do not comprehend RS motivation. I do however believe the Arena is not part of any master plan. Land with provisional planning permission and a grand house for conversion , which fits the port folio would come as no surprise if it were there somewhere. Even the likes of MG Academy and the Eastbourne complex make more sense than the Arena.

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