Time to know what the deal is.

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princes town
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Time to know what the deal is.

Post by princes town » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:41 pm

Surely in the interest of calming nerves it would be nice to have a summary of the deal with BM. Rugby club members seem to have more knowledge of it than we do

dickdarlington
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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by dickdarlington » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:13 pm

My concern is we have another fundraising scheme ready to be announced. I'd imagine there could be a few investors out there reluctant to part with their hard earned cash if there is to be no benefit to us. I'm thinking specifically of the pitch, particularly if the rugby club are going to let every Tom Dick and Sebastian to play on it.

lo36789
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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by lo36789 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:41 pm

I think our fans need to calm down a bit. Minds are racing before the club have even had a chance to rectify teething issues from the opening day.

Let the clubs work them through. The terms are no more relevant at this point than they were on Christmas Day.

Take a step back, take a deep breath in and reflect on what you are suggesting and the benefit it could possibly have?

Who can play on the pitch will almost certainly have been agreed in advance. It is entirely unfair to say the rugby club are letting people play on it, as if somehow they shouldn't be entitled to have held these fixtures. It is a partnership and the partnership has agreed to these fixtures being played.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by SwansQuaker83 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:57 pm

lo36789 wrote:I think our fans need to calm down a bit. Minds are racing before the club have even had a chance to rectify teething issues from the opening day.

Let the clubs work them through. The terms are no more relevant at this point than they were on Christmas Day.

Take a step back, take a deep breath in and reflect on what you are suggesting and the benefit it could possibly have?

Who can play on the pitch will almost certainly have been agreed in advance. It is entirely unfair to say the rugby club are letting people play on it, as if somehow they shouldn't be entitled to have held these fixtures. It is a partnership and the partnership has agreed to these fixtures being played.
Personally I trust those in charge completely, it's just excitement to see what's going to happen rather than being anxious about it...

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by dickdarlington » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:34 pm

Perhaps I am over reacting on this occasion. And I'm not wanting to increase any tensions. I've done well not to stick my neb in so far because as you say Lo, we need to give the two clubs a chance to work through things. It's just stewing underneath. And we all Love a conspiracy don't we. Plus we don't have the best of luck when it comes to suck matters.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by liddle_4_ever » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:39 pm

lo36789 wrote:I think our fans need to calm down a bit. Minds are racing before the club have even had a chance to rectify teething issues from the opening day.

Let the clubs work them through. The terms are no more relevant at this point than they were on Christmas Day.

Take a step back, take a deep breath in and reflect on what you are suggesting and the benefit it could possibly have?

Who can play on the pitch will almost certainly have been agreed in advance. It is entirely unfair to say the rugby club are letting people play on it, as if somehow they shouldn't be entitled to have held these fixtures. It is a partnership and the partnership has agreed to these fixtures being played.
I agree with this, people are over reacting about a friendly that traditionally almost every rugby club partakes in on Boxing Day (or the day after in this case). Rugby pitches generally wear quite evenly where as football pitches normally wear around the 6 yard boxes, therefore we should (without coming across like DP) tell the ball boys that they can't be playing in the goal.

But it should be a point of note that not communicating the ground sharing details could harm fundraising efforts.


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Robbie Painter
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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by Robbie Painter » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:11 pm

lo36789 wrote:I think our fans need to calm down a bit. Minds are racing before the club have even had a chance to rectify teething issues from the opening day.

Let the clubs work them through. The terms are no more relevant at this point than they were on Christmas Day.

Take a step back, take a deep breath in and reflect on what you are suggesting and the benefit it could possibly have?

Who can play on the pitch will almost certainly have been agreed in advance. It is entirely unfair to say the rugby club are letting people play on it, as if somehow they shouldn't be entitled to have held these fixtures. It is a partnership and the partnership has agreed to these fixtures being played.
Stop calling it a partnership - it isn't. As Mike Wilkinson was very keen to point out at a forum we have a license to play. That is a very limited agreement and in no way shape or form anything like a partnership.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by wizardofos » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:14 pm

I agree with princes town.
Why the hell should we not know the deal having invested what we have?
What could possibly be confidential about it?

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by lo36789 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:46 pm

why aren't the player salaries published what could possibly be confidential about that? We pay their wages don't we.

The income and available funds of the majority of organisations is commercially sensitive. What if the agreement details the exact costing of the beer and food in the rugby club - completely damaging any future negotiating position for an alternate supplier.

The club have clearly stated, repeatedly, that it is commercially sensitive information. That has been stated by ex-chairmen, new chairmen, DFCSG board alike.

Anyone questioning is just trying to stir in my opinion.

When you buy shares in a private or public limited company that does not entitle you to see all their contracts with third party supplier, to see the commercial agreements their have with commercial partners why do you believe this case is any different?

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by wizardofos » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:11 pm

lo36789 wrote:why aren't the player salaries published what could possibly be confidential about that? We pay their wages don't we.

The income and available funds of the majority of organisations is commercially sensitive. What if the agreement details the exact costing of the beer and food in the rugby club - completely damaging any future negotiating position for an alternate supplier.

The club have clearly stated, repeatedly, that it is commercially sensitive information. That has been stated by ex-chairmen, new chairmen, DFCSG board alike.

Anyone questioning is just trying to stir in my opinion.

When you buy shares in a private or public limited company that does not entitle you to see all their contracts with third party supplier, to see the commercial agreements their have with commercial partners why do you believe this case is any different?
This is completely different.
The same stakeholders are going to be approached for cash call after cash call (which does not tend to happen in the commercial world). If future cash calls are to be successful, the appetite for a reasonable amount of information will increase each time.
I can only assume that "confidential" in this case means that the stakeholders wouldn't like what has been agreed if they were told.
It goes without saying that individual players wages should not be disclosed, but I fail to see why the total wage budget should not be transparent in an ownership model like this.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by lo36789 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:16 pm

Don't think at the point a company do a share issue that they are required to release such information.

Looking through crowdcube in fact I can't find a single company asking for investment has released commercially sensitive information into the public domain. They detail the strategic objectives and have an investors prospectus and that is what a decision is based upon.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by liddle_4_ever » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:29 pm

Stating that the profit from food and drink sales are split 50:50 or whatever it may be wouldn't affect future negotiations.


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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:31 pm

I don't think you can view this as a company shareholder transaction as the shareholders are also the main customers in this company so the whole thing is a bit more interlinked.

I don't see us getting a full list of what the deal is and probably at the moment might be best, we need to step back and see how things develop over the next few months.

It's clear we have some issues and the boards of both clubs will be meeting to iron out these, for me I will see what comes over the months and how things develop.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by lo36789 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:23 pm

I genuinely think people are emotionally charged right now and regardless what the 'deal' would be people would pick holes at it, which just wouldn't be helpful at all.

It's the old reason why club secretaries generally don't submit their scores for referees until 36/48 hours after games because otherwise emotion blinkers their views.

People are demanding these things because of some frustrations about Boxing Day. The club have already announced this feedback is being taken on board and addressed. That is what is more important right now.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by shawry » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:37 am

lo36789 wrote:I genuinely think people are emotionally charged right now and regardless what the 'deal' would be people would pick holes at it, which just wouldn't be helpful at all.

It's the old reason why club secretaries generally don't submit their scores for referees until 36/48 hours after games because otherwise emotion blinkers their views.

People are demanding these things because of some frustrations about Boxing Day. The club have already announced this feedback is being taken on board and addressed. That is what is more important right now.
I'm fairness people have been asking what the deal is from as far back as the move was first put into motion.

They don't want ins and outs, just want to know things like what percentage of profit from food drink goes to us on match days etc.

At the end of the day this feels no different to sharing with bishop, but with worse facilities. It's just a shame that bishop weren't actually based in Darlo as for the most part they gave the impression they wanted to help us (ok they got good money too) whereas it still feels to me that the rugby club need us, rather than want us.



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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by wizardofos » Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:01 am

It would be good to know the fundamental points of the deal:
- Rental payable now and how it will be reviewed going forward
- Length of lease and break clauses (although is it a lease? As Robbie Painter says, Mike Wilkinson keeps referring to a licence)
- How the lease (licence) could be terminated and with what notice
- The basis of how income (if any) is apportioned to DFC from all other incomes streams after the turnstile

I don't think anyone wants to know the cost price of the beer or pork scratchings, lo36789.

My own view is that some clarity is required regarding these points before the next cash call (which could be as early as January). Donors will then have some confidence that their money is backing a strong and secure legal position.

Perhaps I'm the only one interested in this.

ps: All things considered, I thought the first game was well organised. Congratulations to all those who made it happen.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by lo36789 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:23 am

wizardofos wrote:It would be good to know the fundamental points of the deal:
- Rental payable now and how it will be reviewed going forward
- Length of lease and break clauses (although is it a lease? As Robbie Painter says, Mike Wilkinson keeps referring to a licence)
- How the lease (licence) could be terminated and with what notice
- The basis of how income (if any) is apportioned to DFC from all other incomes streams after the turnstile
Rent payable - I'm sure at fans forum it was said it was the same as Bishop. We were never officially told what it was at Bishop but I think it was rumoured to be £25k per annum. It was deemed to be commercially sensitive but accepted as such.

Lease - to meet ground grading you either need freehold on land or a lease, I assume we haven't managed to get the first and it is 25years. Again this was mentioned at fans forum and has been said to be too short by a few on here. I am not entirely sure why break clauses need to be shared with the football club fans?

Income - this is the bit that will be challenged. I always thought it was confirmed at the fans forum that basically we keep what we sell. That is why there is the segregated bar as it means revenue streams can be kept separate. Based on what has been seen the rugby club caterers are being used so there is a 'cost' which we will in effect pay the rugby club - again this is where it gets commercially sensitive as potentially discussing the markup that they apply when hosting other events in the clubhouse.

Ever considered that it may have been DFC who set the prices?

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by wizardofos » Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:39 am

lo36789 wrote:
wizardofos wrote:It would be good to know the fundamental points of the deal:
- Rental payable now and how it will be reviewed going forward
- Length of lease and break clauses (although is it a lease? As Robbie Painter says, Mike Wilkinson keeps referring to a licence)
- How the lease (licence) could be terminated and with what notice
- The basis of how income (if any) is apportioned to DFC from all other incomes streams after the turnstile
Rent payable - I'm sure at fans forum it was said it was the same as Bishop. We were never officially told what it was at Bishop but I think it was rumoured to be £25k per annum. It was deemed to be commercially sensitive but accepted as such.

Lease - to meet ground grading you either need freehold on land or a lease, I assume we haven't managed to get the first and it is 25years. Again this was mentioned at fans forum and has been said to be too short by a few on here. I am not entirely sure why break clauses need to be shared with the football club fans?

Income - this is the bit that will be challenged. I always thought it was confirmed at the fans forum that basically we keep what we sell. That is why there is the segregated bar as it means revenue streams can be kept separate. Based on what has been seen the rugby club caterers are being used so there is a 'cost' which we will in effect pay the rugby club - again this is where it gets commercially sensitive as potentially discussing the markup that they apply when hosting other events in the clubhouse.

Ever considered that it may have been DFC who set the prices?
A member of the Rugby Club told me last night that DFC set the catering prices. Who knows if he is right or guessing.

The root of my concern is what lead to Martin Jesper calling off the negotiations. I think all would agree that he is a shrewd and capable operator.
When talks continued (without Jesper) a resolution was apparently achieved. I wonder if this was due to DFC or Rugby Club capitulating to the previous sticking points?

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by loan_star » Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:44 am

lo36789 wrote:why aren't the player salaries published what could possibly be confidential about that? We pay their wages don't we.

The income and available funds of the majority of organisations is commercially sensitive. What if the agreement details the exact costing of the beer and food in the rugby club - completely damaging any future negotiating position for an alternate supplier.

The club have clearly stated, repeatedly, that it is commercially sensitive information. That has been stated by ex-chairmen, new chairmen, DFCSG board alike.

Anyone questioning is just trying to stir in my opinion.

When you buy shares in a private or public limited company that does not entitle you to see all their contracts with third party supplier, to see the commercial agreements their have with commercial partners why do you believe this case is any different?
Players wages come out of normal income plus we see what we get for that on the pitch.
Asking for money to improve infrastructure is totally different. We are paying to improve someone else's facilities so should have better insight as to how the deal works.
Did you know the players aren't even allowed to train on the pitch? The rugby club wouldn't allow them access on non match days to get used to their new surroundings. Pathetic really considering how much money we have ploughed in to their facilities.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:46 am

Refusing us access to the facilities is a disgrace, who the hell do DRFC think they are, the question marks about catering and now this and we have only just started.Some good posts from Shawry, Wizardofos and Loan Star,sensible and pretty much reflect the feelings of the majority of Darlo fans.Really hope a them and us attitude does not present itself here, we never had that at HP as someone pointed out, the opposite in fact.We need the rugby club as much as they need us, they were in a mess financially and should not need reminding of that, we wanted to come home so a partnership rather than a license is what should be coming across.Early days, but let's start as we need to go on and get these issues sorted and move on.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by Undercovered » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:04 am

QUAKERMAN2 wrote:Refusing us access to the facilities is a disgrace, who the hell do DRFC think they are
The owners of the site? Like it or not we play there under license which means we have access on a match day to play games.

One or two need to take a step back and put the shoe on the other foot, yes we've spent a lot of money improving the infrastructure but that was because of our need, not the rugby club. They're not really going to see any benefit from that from a rugby perspective given their level and current attendances.

I'm sure some common ground will be found over the next few months but it doesn't help that happen when you have fans from both sides spouting off quoting things like a "us and them attitude" when their comments are creating exactly that....

Like it or not, we're not in a great position to be laying the law down and I'm sure if it was the rugby club moving into feethams we'd have felt the same.
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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by QUAKERMAN2 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:27 am

Fair points, let's give this more time then and take a step back.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by lo36789 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:15 am

Ok refused access. Is that what has been confirmed - or did we turn up when it was closed and wonder why no-one was there to let us in?

Also given we have been whinging that the rugby pitch is being used for a charity match...are we now suddenly comfortable that first teams train on the pitch - or is that only when it suits us?

I was told by rugby club that we set the beer price at £4 on the day all the rugby club did was buy in the supplies. So it does sound like the rugby club members know more than us myth has been busted as it would appear they all know different information.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by olrad » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:29 pm

I dont feel the need to be informed about every detail, but I do realise that a major reason for returning to town was to increase OUR revenue streams . Now paying slightly over the odds for a pie and a pint is of no major concern to me IF the money raised is of direct benefit to my club, but if its not I'd like to know so I can make an informed decision about where I want to spend my money....I dont see that as an unreasonable request.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by olrad » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:30 pm

Oops double post
Last edited by olrad on Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by Emdubya » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:31 pm

lo36789 wrote:Ok refused access. Is that what has been confirmed - or did we turn up when it was closed and wonder why no-one was there to let us in?

Also given we have been whinging that the rugby pitch is being used for a charity match...are we now suddenly comfortable that first teams train on the pitch - or is that only when it suits us?

I was told by rugby club that we set the beer price at £4 on the day all the rugby club did was buy in the supplies. So it does sound like the rugby club members know more than us myth has been busted as it would appear they all know different information.
No,we won't be training on the pitch,we have excellent facilities at Hundens for that.MG just wanted an hour on the pitch to give the lads a feel of the place.Maybe in hindsight it would have been worth a call to check the place was open.
Lo,I understand that none of us,including you,know the ins and outs of this "partnership ",so your defence af all things DRFC is wearing a bit thin.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:46 pm

The place was shut as planned, so if we definitely didn't make a call or get an agreement to train then no wonder we couldn't get in on the day.

Not likely we will want to train on the pitch again so that issue is resolved I guess.

Whilst I don't totally agree with Lo on every point I think it helps to look at it from the other perspective which he is doing.

This can work for both clubs and I think it will but it's early days and no doubt certain things are rubbing each club up the wrong way.

Let's see how things pan out over the next few games.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by lo36789 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:50 pm

Thanks Les. I am not trying to simply defend DRFC through everything I am merely providing balance to an otherwise toxic discussion.

If we point finger at DRFC for everything who does that help?

As you can clearly see I don't know any more than anybody else, but what I am proving is that perception is everything and there is an alternative perception.

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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by Undercovered » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:43 pm

olrad wrote:I dont feel the need to be informed about every detail, but I do realise that a major reason for returning to town was to increase OUR revenue streams . Now paying slightly over the odds for a pie and a pint is of no major concern to me IF the money raised is of direct benefit to my club, but if its not I'd like to know so I can make an informed decision about where I want to spend my money....I dont see that as an unreasonable request.
Yes, I totally get that and I'm sure that without disclosing exactly what is made the club can in the foreseeable future give some indication which will help us as fans to make an informed choice
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Re: Time to know what the deal is.

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:48 pm

lo36789 wrote:When you buy shares in a private or public limited company that does not entitle you to see all their contracts with third party supplier, to see the commercial agreements their have with commercial partners why do you believe this case is any different?
I see your point in most of what you've put - but the shares thing doesn't hold water for me, because when we chip extra money, we don't expect a return of any sort, we do it because we enjoy seeing our club do well, and we feel a part of it.

So to me some of the details need to be released, otherwise rumour and false info will circle around indefinitely and this won't help with fundraising.

No one could ever say that the fans (us) aren't generous, however because of previous events we do like to know where our money is going and the outlook for the future.

Share buyers look for their shares to go up in value and for their dividend interest to give them income, it's business - not like the relationship we as fans have with "our" club.
Robbie Painter wrote:Stop calling it a partnership - it isn't. As Mike Wilkinson was very keen to point out at a forum we have a license to play. That is a very limited agreement and in no way shape or form anything like a partnership.
I had it in my head it was a partnership of sorts - I'm a little surprised by this.
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