Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

[SwansQuaker83]

If rugby members are there on matchdays they should pay the same as our fans.

But how do you calculate what they spent and what our fans spent. Or are you suggesting we should get a percentage of the profit on sales to rugby members just because it is our matchday (even though it is also their match day for their other teams which are there?).

They have taken on all costs, all electricity, all supplies, all staffing.

Given at Bishop we must have had at most 100 fans upstairs in Bishop when it was an open bar. If each buys 2 pints you are selling 200 pints of beer, if the beer costs £3 and assuming 50% of this is profit (taking into account all costs - no idea how accurate that is probably seems a bit generous) then you are making £300 per game.

If we are wanting to have 50% of that profit that is £150 per game (after all it is only fair if you are paying to staff/heat/light a bar that you would get a return - so the rugby club need to get something).

In perspective that is 13 fans through the gate.

Well that's up to the club to work that out... As I said I'm plucking figures out of the air. What I'm sure has been done is that this was all calculated and an agreed percentage was implemented, based on electricity estimates, staffing costs, estimated bar sales, 99% of which will be from football fans on a matchday. You could use rugby club cards to swipe every sale so that a till could work it out, even more local cricket club has that facility... There are ways and means of estimating a fair percentage for both and then negotiating profit percentage once all factors are taken into account.... As opposed to the rugby club saying you're getting nowt and if you want some money back we'll add a supplement on so football fans pay more...

[Spyman]

There's a lot of talk of 'financial benefit to the football club'.

Ultimately, the benefit to us in this arrangement is a place to play football in Darlington. We didn't make this move for purely financial reasons. Increased attendance, sponsorship should take after that aspect but the rugby club have to see a benefit in this too, otherwise why would they bother?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Quakerz]

50% profit on beer? Most retailers are lucky to make 5-10% margin after all costs. I can't see a football club selling beer doing better than that. You can probably reduce your estimate to 2-3 fans.

Meh really quite happy to be wrong on this. I was being exceptionally generous with absolutely zero knowledge.

You make the same point as me, but your figures make it even bolder and better.

I think where we're going to make more money is through obviously more fans through the gate, but also greater advertising income, hopefully more sponsors, and more fans brings more merchandise sales and more people joining the supporters group, the lottery, and so on.

So basically everything that is completely irrelevant to 'the deal' which needs to be seen by every fan so they can decide whether it is the right thing to move to BM.

In a nutshell.

I just fancied challenging your optimistic beer profit assumption.

[TDS]

Confirmation of the Bishop deal is above from footie fan, which does match why we had a rent reduction after about the first season. Knowing who footie fan is then you can take his account as 100% accurate, a reduction in rent to save the hassle about percentage of bar takings.

I don't know who footiefan is but maybe he can clear up some of the other rumours on here?

I'm of course happy to be wrong on this occasion, and in light of Quakerz doing the figures, we'll probably lose money on the beer tent! Let Joes bar take the pittance offered.

[spen666]

...

....

I'm of course happy to be wrong on this occasion, and in light of Quakerz doing the figures, we'll probably lose money on the beer tent! Let Joes bar take the pittance offered.

Its not as simple an equation as that.

No beer tent/ facility to get alcohol will put some people off coming to games.

Is the reduction in the crowd as a result of those people not coming (or more likely the potential loss of new fans) to games, paying admission, buying merchandise etc going to cost the club more than the cost of running a beer tent- assuming it runs at a loss ( I am not convinced it will be a loss). Its similar to what Quakerz described in relation to the food concessions at a game.

The more people that come through the turnstiles, the more money that can be asked for advertising in ground, in programme etc

[lo36789]

No beer tent/ facility to get alcohol will put some people off coming to games.

That's not the suggestion though is it. There is clearly a facility to have beer - but the question is whether it matters in the grand scheme of things whether we get a cut of the profits - as Quakerz has put it financially it makes no difference to us - so basically allow the rugby club to run the facility and they can have benefit from it.

[SwansQuaker83]

Given at Bishop we must have had at most 100 fans upstairs in Bishop when it was an open bar. If each buys 2 pints you are selling 200 pints of beer, if the beer costs £3 and assuming 50% of this is profit (taking into account all costs - no idea how accurate that is probably seems a bit generous) then you are making £300 per game.

If we are wanting to have 50% of that profit that is £150 per game (after all it is only fair if you are paying to staff/heat/light a bar that you would get a return - so the rugby club need to get something).

In perspective that is 13 fans through the gate.

50% profit on beer? Most retailers are lucky to make 5-10% margin after all costs. I can't see a football club selling beer doing better than that.

No what I originally said was 50% of any profit to go to us, so if the profit margin was 10% we would take 5% which is different to 50% profit on beer in general. But ok, revise that down as I said to 25% then that's reasonable...

If that's the profit margin and we have a subsidising in place so the FC make a pound on top of the price of a pint then it's pointless charging the fans that since the gain is minimal?

[Quakerz]

Given at Bishop we must have had at most 100 fans upstairs in Bishop when it was an open bar. If each buys 2 pints you are selling 200 pints of beer, if the beer costs £3 and assuming 50% of this is profit (taking into account all costs - no idea how accurate that is probably seems a bit generous) then you are making £300 per game.

If we are wanting to have 50% of that profit that is £150 per game (after all it is only fair if you are paying to staff/heat/light a bar that you would get a return - so the rugby club need to get something).

In perspective that is 13 fans through the gate.

50% profit on beer? Most retailers are lucky to make 5-10% margin after all costs. I can't see a football club selling beer doing better than that.

No what I originally said was 50% of any profit to go to us, so if the profit margin was 10% we would take 5% which is different to 50% profit on beer in general. But ok, revise that down as I said to 25% then that's reasonable...

If that's the profit margin and we have a subsidising in place so the FC make a pound on top of the price of a pint then it's pointless charging the fans that since the gain is minimal?

I never said you said 50% profit, it was lo that said it, and lo that I quoted.

To be honest I don't know what the net profit on beer is any more than anyone else, but comparing it to retail profit margins in general (especially food which is known for slim margins), I just couldn't imagine it being anywhere near 50%.

[lo36789]

If that's the profit margin and we have a subsidising in place so the FC make a pound on top of the price of a pint then it's pointless charging the fans that since the gain is minimal?

It's pointless deliberating over it as a point if the gain is minimal. That is ultimately what this discussion has been above.

Some folk have said they must know what percentage of the beer and food sale are going to DFC, as it has a huge bearing on whether the football club have rushed into a deal, which must be the case because it happened so easily after MJ left.

My argument all along has been that whether we get a 50% share or a 0% share of these revenues the difference will actually be negligible. All that can possibly happen from the lower level details being released is people turning it into an excuse as to why everything is terrible, because one thing is sure above all else under no circumstances is everybody ever happy.

[spen666]

It's pointless deliberating over it as a point if the gain is minimal. That is ultimately what this discussion has been above.

Some folk have said they must know what percentage of the beer and food sale are going to DFC, as it has a huge bearing on whether the football club have rushed into a deal, which must be the case because it happened so easily after MJ left.

My argument all along has been that whether we get a 50% share or a 0% share of these revenues the difference will actually be negligible. All that can possibly happen from the lower level details being released is people turning it into an excuse as to why everything is terrible, because one thing is sure above all else under no circumstances is everybody ever happy.

I'm not happy with your response

[wizardofos]

The key number is the rent.
This is unknown, with the only clue coming from Super Les McJannet who says it is higher than Bishop.
Other stuff like catering, good toilets etc are part of the list of services which will increase attendance when done well.
The trade price of beer is under £1.50 a pint by the way. At £4 this would be a mark up on cost of 166%, or a margin on sales of 62% depending on whether your glass is half full or empty.

[lo36789]

The trade price of beer is under £1.50 a pint by the way. At £4 this would be a mark up on cost of 166%, or a margin on sales of 62% depending on whether your glass is half full or empty.

Way ignore all other costs.

[wizardofos]

Of course there are other costs.
But that is the contribution towards those costs that each pint sold makes.
The costs tend to be fixed (lights on, staff behind bar) so when sufficient sales are made to cover those costs, all extra sales generate the profits mentioned.

[lo36789]

Of course there are other costs.
But that is the contribution towards those costs that each pint sold makes.
The costs tend to be fixed (lights on, staff behind bar) so when sufficient sales are made to cover those costs, all extra sales generate the profits mentioned.

Depends if you are going down an ABC method or not I suppose...

[MCFCDarlo3]

Of course there are other costs.
But that is the contribution towards those costs that each pint sold makes.
The costs tend to be fixed (lights on, staff behind bar) so when sufficient sales are made to cover those costs, all extra sales generate the profits mentioned.

Correct.Break Even Point and then contribution to profit.

[Spyman]

Given at Bishop we must have had at most 100 fans upstairs in Bishop when it was an open bar. If each buys 2 pints you are selling 200 pints of beer, if the beer costs £3 and assuming 50% of this is profit (taking into account all costs - no idea how accurate that is probably seems a bit generous) then you are making £300 per game.

If we are wanting to have 50% of that profit that is £150 per game (after all it is only fair if you are paying to staff/heat/light a bar that you would get a return - so the rugby club need to get something).

In perspective that is 13 fans through the gate.

50% profit on beer? Most retailers are lucky to make 5-10% margin after all costs. I can't see a football club selling beer doing better than that.

No what I originally said was 50% of any profit to go to us, so if the profit margin was 10% we would take 5% which is different to 50% profit on beer in general. But ok, revise that down as I said to 25% then that's reasonable...

If that's the profit margin and we have a subsidising in place so the FC make a pound on top of the price of a pint then it's pointless charging the fans that since the gain is minimal?

I never said you said 50% profit, it was lo that said it, and lo that I quoted.

To be honest I don't know what the net profit on beer is any more than anyone else, but comparing it to retail profit margins in general (especially food which is known for slim margins), I just couldn't imagine it being anywhere near 50%.

The NET profit on beer is considerably greater if it's not supplied by a contracted brewery, ie you get a bigger margin if you sell cans/bottles only than you do on tap. It may well depend what the rugby clubs relationship is with the brewery.

Either way the margins are not great and really not worth falling out with our landlords over.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[SwansQuaker83]

Given at Bishop we must have had at most 100 fans upstairs in Bishop when it was an open bar. If each buys 2 pints you are selling 200 pints of beer, if the beer costs £3 and assuming 50% of this is profit (taking into account all costs - no idea how accurate that is probably seems a bit generous) then you are making £300 per game.

If we are wanting to have 50% of that profit that is £150 per game (after all it is only fair if you are paying to staff/heat/light a bar that you would get a return - so the rugby club need to get something).

In perspective that is 13 fans through the gate.

50% profit on beer? Most retailers are lucky to make 5-10% margin after all costs. I can't see a football club selling beer doing better than that.

No what I originally said was 50% of any profit to go to us, so if the profit margin was 10% we would take 5% which is different to 50% profit on beer in general. But ok, revise that down as I said to 25% then that's reasonable...

If that's the profit margin and we have a subsidising in place so the FC make a pound on top of the price of a pint then it's pointless charging the fans that since the gain is minimal?

I never said you said 50% profit, it was lo that said it, and lo that I quoted.

To be honest I don't know what the net profit on beer is any more than anyone else, but comparing it to retail profit margins in general (especially food which is known for slim margins), I just couldn't imagine it being anywhere near 50%.

Yeah he said it in response to my post... Nee bother anyway

[shawry]

But thats the point, both clubs say we are a partnership, but its clear that largely speaking it isnt.

I would be interested to know if we do get some revenue from food/drink purely because I've been told ever since we took back our club that every single pound counts, but it seems that it only counts if it comes directly from our pocket, rather than from us buying some drinks.

[spen666]

But thats the point, both clubs say we are a partnership, but its clear that largely speaking it isnt.

I would be interested to know if we do get some revenue from food/drink purely because I've been told ever since we took back our club that every single pound counts, but it seems that it only counts if it comes directly from our pocket, rather than from us buying some drinks.

The 2 clubs ARE involved in a partnership.

The partnership however is not a partnership of equals and is not a 50/50 partnership. That is an almost inevitable consequence of the fact the 2 parties did not contribute equally to the partnership.

[footie fan]

Confirmation of the Bishop deal is above from footie fan, which does match why we had a rent reduction after about the first season. Knowing who footie fan is then you can take his account as 100% accurate, a reduction in rent to save the hassle about percentage of bar takings.

I don't know who footiefan is but maybe he can clear up some of the other rumours on here?

I'm of course happy to be wrong on this occasion, and in light of Quakerz doing the figures, we'll probably lose money on the beer tent! Let Joes bar take the pittance offered.

I tell you what I can clear up , most bars work on around a 47 to 53 % NET profit ( sorry Quakerz ) , an average pint comes in at around pound to buy , sell for £2.8 to £ 3 ,if you are vat registered divide by 1.2 , after this you have electric / heat , staff and cleaning costs to deduct , like I say a ball ache to work out if sharing profits . I've gave an example on beer sales but the real profit is in soft drinks and spirits . I know of some NL clubs that are ran by volunteers that can makeup to 70% net profit .

One last thing , £4 a pint is big music festival territory , outrageous , Darlo fans need to vote with their feet on that one .

[Quakerz]

Sounds like you know what you're talking about so I'll take that as fact. Does the net profit also take into account rent, rates etc as well?

Good guess Lo!

[Spyman]

Confirmation of the Bishop deal is above from footie fan, which does match why we had a rent reduction after about the first season. Knowing who footie fan is then you can take his account as 100% accurate, a reduction in rent to save the hassle about percentage of bar takings.

I don't know who footiefan is but maybe he can clear up some of the other rumours on here?

I'm of course happy to be wrong on this occasion, and in light of Quakerz doing the figures, we'll probably lose money on the beer tent! Let Joes bar take the pittance offered.

I tell you what I can clear up , most bars work on around a 47 to 53 % NET profit ( sorry Quakerz ) , an average pint comes in at around pound to buy , sell for £2.8 to £ 3 ,if you are vat registered divide by 1.2 , after this you have electric / heat , staff and cleaning costs to deduct , like I say a ball ache to work out if sharing profits . I've gave an example on beer sales but the real profit is in soft drinks and spirits . I know of some NL clubs that are ran by volunteers that can makeup to 70% net profit .

One last thing , £4 a pint is big music festival territory , outrageous , Darlo fans need to vote with their feet on that one .

£4 a pint is bargain where I live!

If the Rugby club keep all profit on drinks then charging football fans more than rugby fans seems disingenuous. If the extra £ is to give the Football club a cut of profit from a facility that is being run by the Rugby club then I'm not sure we can complain really.

[TDS]

Confirmation of the Bishop deal is above from footie fan, which does match why we had a rent reduction after about the first season. Knowing who footie fan is then you can take his account as 100% accurate, a reduction in rent to save the hassle about percentage of bar takings.

I don't know who footiefan is but maybe he can clear up some of the other rumours on here?

I'm of course happy to be wrong on this occasion, and in light of Quakerz doing the figures, we'll probably lose money on the beer tent! Let Joes bar take the pittance offered.

I tell you what I can clear up , most bars work on around a 47 to 53 % NET profit ( sorry Quakerz ) , an average pint comes in at around pound to buy , sell for £2.8 to £ 3 ,if you are vat registered divide by 1.2 , after this you have electric / heat , staff and cleaning costs to deduct , like I say a ball ache to work out if sharing profits . I've gave an example on beer sales but the real profit is in soft drinks and spirits . I know of some NL clubs that are ran by volunteers that can makeup to 70% net profit .

One last thing , £4 a pint is big music festival territory , outrageous , Darlo fans need to vote with their feet on that one .

£4 a pint is now what they charge in Number One in the town, festivals have overtaken that price years ago.

Ultimately you can have a sell out, with a captive market and assume wrongly that upping the prices will increase your revenue (maybe the club made this mistake with the £4). Or you can "do a 'spoons" and fill the bar with staff, drop prices and go for double the sales in terms of units sold.

Anyway, good to see the tent (labelled "sports bar" on the website?) will be available in early Feb, and the bar is open to all on Saturday, with a capacity being enforced. Good work.

[lo36789]

£4 a pint is bargain where I live!

Was going to say I think most city centres are in this region now - at least for the 'premium' lagers. Real Ales and Fosters/Carlsberg are a wee bit cheaper.

Someone told me that a lager shandy set them back £4.50 at Fylde the other week so I am not sure if £4 is as outrageous as it was 10 years ago. I'd have thought £6 was the festival price nowadays.

A bit off topic there. I can definitely see it from the rugby clubs perspective that depending on which Saturday it is they would make a different margin on their sales, for exactly the same cost. Obviously there is a big captive market and we should get something for bringing that audience to them - but it does sound complicated to work out and I still wouldn't think worth falling out over.

[shawry]

They have historic records, just do it simply and say we split profits 50/50 above what they have historically taken.

I know thats not the most accurate way to do it, but they'll still end up with more than they used to get.

[super_les_mcjannet]

They have historic records, just do it simply and say we split profits 50/50 above what they have historically taken.

I know thats not the most accurate way to do it, but they'll still end up with more than they used to get.

Is that profits after water, electric, gas, rates, staffing costs, wear and tear etc are all taken into account also how do we value all of those.

Never going to be 50/50 if you take all that into account just on profit from selling beer/food etc.

[footie fan]

Sounds like you know what you're talking about so I'll take that as fact. Does the net profit also take into account rent, rates etc as well?

Good guess Lo!

.

Good question , it didn't in Darlo's case and we are talking net profit on beer sales which in a normal pub/ restaurant would have other forms of income , food / room hire etc , so I would say no .

[H1987]

I honestly don't see the problem of the rugby club taking profit if they run the bar facility and it is fairly priced? It simply provides a facility to fans. I'm personally pretty relaxed about it as long as it is fair.

If it was being run by our fans as volunteers and they were taking profits I could see the point in grumbling, but it's not.

[Henley]

Can you walk along Grange Road all the way to the ground, i.e. is there a path that goes all the way?

[lo36789]

Can you walk along Grange Road all the way to the ground, i.e. is there a path that goes all the way?

Yes on the ground side of Grange Road.