Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

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lo36789
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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:36 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
lo36789 wrote:Remember at Bishop we got £0 from bar sales
You sure about this??
That's what MJ stated at forums anyway - but not in a bad way as at the same time confirmed there isn't much money in it anyway.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by spen666 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:23 am

lo36789 wrote:
That's what MJ stated at forums anyway - but not in a bad way as at the same time confirmed there isn't much money in it anyway.
If there is not much money in bar sales, why are clubs so keen to have clubhouses serving alcohol?

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:55 am

spen666 wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
That's what MJ stated at forums anyway - but not in a bad way as at the same time confirmed there isn't much money in it anyway.
If there is not much money in bar sales, why are clubs so keen to have clubhouses serving alcohol?
No idea. I am just repeating what was said elsewhere. I didn't do the analysis nor did I survey other clubs.

I always though that the greater benefit was the 7 day a week revenue potential due to hosting functions and hospitality. That would certainly explain why I get leaflets through my door from Marine advertising their clubhouse being open for function room hire.

I have been to Marine before where the bar has been closed to spectators for a function which is possibly indicative of that.

I can't recall ever seeing a pub that only opens for 2 hours once a fortnight and makes a killing.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by spen666 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:37 am

lo36789 wrote:
spen666 wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
That's what MJ stated at forums anyway - but not in a bad way as at the same time confirmed there isn't much money in it anyway.
If there is not much money in bar sales, why are clubs so keen to have clubhouses serving alcohol?
No idea. I am just repeating what was said elsewhere. I didn't do the analysis nor did I survey other clubs.

I always though that the greater benefit was the 7 day a week revenue potential due to hosting functions and hospitality. That would certainly explain why I get leaflets through my door from Marine advertising their clubhouse being open for function room hire.

I have been to Marine before where the bar has been closed to spectators for a function which is possibly indicative of that.

I can't recall ever seeing a pub that only opens for 2 hours once a fortnight and makes a killing.

I have no idea either, but its often said for example the loss of the clubhouse at Spennymoor in the fire was the catalyst for the bankruptcy of the club.

All thriving clubs seem to want to have a bar/ clubhouse.


I would not have thought a bar with as you say limited opening hours would bring in much money either.

On the other side of the coin, Heaton Stannington had their bar open at lunchtime on Christmas Day as there was sufficient trade to make it worthwhile!

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by TDS » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:25 am

Spoke to the guys behind the bar about it at Bishop and we didn't get a penny.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:27 am

spen666 wrote:I have no idea either, but its often said for example the loss of the clubhouse at Spennymoor in the fire was the catalyst for the bankruptcy of the club.
But because of match day bar revenues or because of lost revenue from the other 28 days in a month?

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by Beano » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:42 am

For all the criticisms made of the alleged agreement with the rugby club, it seems we are retaining far more of the revenue streams at Blackwell that we were at Bishop.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:09 pm

Beano wrote:For all the criticisms made of the alleged agreement with the rugby club, it seems we are retaining far more of the revenue streams at Blackwell that we were at Bishop.
Which streams are we keeping as opposed to Bishop?

Not a dig at the deal as I think the deal has potential for DFC & DRFC to both do well.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by Beano » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:14 pm

super_les_mcjannet wrote:
Beano wrote:For all the criticisms made of the alleged agreement with the rugby club, it seems we are retaining far more of the revenue streams at Blackwell that we were at Bishop.
Which streams are we keeping as opposed to Bishop?

Not a dig at the deal as I think the deal has potential for DFC & DRFC to both do well.
We got £0 from bar sales at Bishop, made bugger all (relatively) from the burger van as it paid a pitch hire, and the car parking behind the March Hare was unavailable this year.

Once we get up to speed at Blackwell, it could well be a better deal.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:24 pm

We are paying more in rent at BM from my understanding, getting probably bugger all in beer and no pitch fee for food, car park money yep I guess we can probably make more there.

I would say at best we are probably even compared to Bishop in terms of the deal, however we are in Darlo so we get increased crowds which should relate in increased programme/50-50 club shop once we are allowed to set up on match day etc.

Also being in Darlo helps us reach out for Business sponsorship.

We are never going to make lots of money in terms of beer sales as we don't own the bar (same as Bishop), not sure who will run the marquee if it will be Football or Rugby Club.
Food again we have no access to the kitchens so we won't make lots of profit from this really especially as Rugby Club are currently running that side and even if they were not we would need to lease the kitchen area/equipment from them.

The plus side is we don't have to pay for a bar/kitchen and the staff etc. but we do need to get it right as it does effect the match day experience for many.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:27 pm

I do agree though, once we get settled in at Blackwell, get through the teething issues with the Rugby Club, they get used to us and we get used to them then the deal could be very beneficial for both clubs.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by al_quaker » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:34 pm

We perhaps make more money from advertising? We (correctly) made a big deal on twitter of welcoming those with advertising boards. If we keep most/all of that then that will probably comfortably outweigh the lack of beer and food.

Hope we find out the deal with the marquee - it will influence my use of it.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:41 pm

lo36789 wrote:
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
lo36789 wrote:Remember at Bishop we got £0 from bar sales
You sure about this??
That's what MJ stated at forums anyway - but not in a bad way as at the same time confirmed there isn't much money in it anyway.

I'm not sure about this. When we first kicked off at Bishop I remember talk of the bar deal being a 50/50 split - which seemed fair.

But getting back to B.M. - on a football match day all the fans/customers will be ours, surely DFC have to benefit financially in some way.
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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:43 pm

Yep advertising boards we will make good money from.

We would never make lots in the bar or for food as we have to use Rugby Club bar/kitchen and looking at it form their point of view they are never going to give us free reign to use all these facilities and take all the profits. We will be making profit on match hospitality but the club will pay the Rugby Club for this service and we will make profit of the top.

In all honesty it's probably a good thing at the moment that we don't have to run a bar/food outlet currently.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by lo36789 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:58 pm

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
lo36789 wrote:Remember at Bishop we got £0 from bar sales
You sure about this??
That's what MJ stated at forums anyway - but not in a bad way as at the same time confirmed there isn't much money in it anyway.

I'm not sure about this. When we first kicked off at Bishop I remember talk of the bar deal being a 50/50 split - which seemed fair.

But getting back to B.M. - on a football match day all the fans/customers will be ours, surely DFC have to benefit financially in some way.
And maybe we do. I don't want to pedal rumours but have been told what the rumoured % is amongst the rugby first team.

Not all fans/customers are ours on a matchday remember that is where some challenge came because the rugby club wanted to guarantee a bar for their teams who are at home and the teams who come back from away games plus any members who happen to be there.

My point about us getting nothing at Bishop (as confirmed by two or three other people above) was in response to a suggestion that on the face of it BM is a very strange arrangement - and trying to understand what is that strange about it when to me it all makes complete sense.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by TDS » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:56 am

theoriginalfatcat wrote:
lo36789 wrote:
theoriginalfatcat wrote:
lo36789 wrote:Remember at Bishop we got £0 from bar sales
You sure about this??
That's what MJ stated at forums anyway - but not in a bad way as at the same time confirmed there isn't much money in it anyway.

I'm not sure about this. When we first kicked off at Bishop I remember talk of the bar deal being a 50/50 split - which seemed fair.

But getting back to B.M. - on a football match day all the fans/customers will be ours, surely DFC have to benefit financially in some way.

Incorrect. Not a penny. Confirmed by a woman who would know also. The right information needs to get out before we go on about what deal we get at BM compared to HP. It'll be along the same lines. Now considering the prices have gone up (on the beer) would suggest we get a share of the take at the bar, but the rugby club didn't want to lose their margin.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by al_quaker » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:12 am

TDS wrote:

Incorrect. Not a penny. Confirmed by a woman who would know also. The right information needs to get out before we go on about what deal we get at BM compared to HP. It'll be along the same lines. Now considering the prices have gone up (on the beer) would suggest we get a share of the take at the bar, but the rugby club didn't want to lose their margin.
And this is why it's important for us to broadly know what the deal is. If we are putting some money on top of what the rugby club normally charge, then it explains the price difference that football fans and rugby fans get charged. Whether that (if it is the case) is palatable to an individual is their choice, but at least we would know whether the rugby club is trying to fleece football fans (as per the rumours after boxing day).

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by m62exile » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:36 am

One difference I noticed at BM on Boxing Day was the addition of private security staff to supplement the work of the matchday volunteers. Hopefully this was just a sensible step due to the importance of the game, the higher crowd, and the need for segregation but it's a cost we've not had to bear before due to the outstanding volunteers we have.

On that point, when we were at Halifax last week I noticed the number of private stewards/ security they had and it made me realise even more how much we owe our volunteers. That's a huge cost for Halifax - I think one of the benefits of starting back in the Northern League was that we were able to start with a clean slate and develop a volunteer base that really helps us.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by SwansQuaker83 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:20 pm

al_quaker wrote:
TDS wrote:

Incorrect. Not a penny. Confirmed by a woman who would know also. The right information needs to get out before we go on about what deal we get at BM compared to HP. It'll be along the same lines. Now considering the prices have gone up (on the beer) would suggest we get a share of the take at the bar, but the rugby club didn't want to lose their margin.
And this is why it's important for us to broadly know what the deal is. If we are putting some money on top of what the rugby club normally charge, then it explains the price difference that football fans and rugby fans get charged. Whether that (if it is the case) is palatable to an individual is their choice, but at least we would know whether the rugby club is trying to fleece football fans (as per the rumours after boxing day).
I agree... Personally, I would not be happy if we have had to mark up beer/food because the rugby club want 100%. A percentage (in my opinion a significant percentage) of beer/food sales taken during a home game should go to us, the rest of the time they can have every penny I'm not bothered. I heard we didnt make anything at HP but I didnt mind as it was a temporary home. But we've signed a 25 year lease on BM with a view to being there for longer, perhaps forever... To receive zero from beer/food from our own fans in our permanent home would be very bad and if the club are having to mark up prices to their fans to make additional on top when a Rugby fan can get a pint for a pound cheaper is not fair and, whilst I want to give as much as I can to the club, I'd be very reluctant to drink and eat there, I'd probably just get a few beers in town pre/post match. Maybe chuck that mark up pound in the BTD fund or buy a 50/50

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:53 pm

We will never make loads in beer/food sales at BM anyhow as Rugby Club own the bar/catering facilities.

We would be better off letting them have all of the revenue off beer/food but we get a lower rent figure. Once the Rugby club get used to us I can imagine they may well wish to open up the bar a lot more, if they then charged normal prices and we knew DFC was receiving reduced rent then happy days.

I would actually like to see the Rugby Club do quite well out of this deal as long as it's an deal that suits both sides.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:10 pm

SwansQuaker83 wrote:I agree... Personally, I would not be happy if we have had to mark up beer/food because the rugby club want 100%. A percentage (in my opinion a significant percentage) of beer/food sales taken during a home game should go to us, the rest of the time they can have every penny I'm not bothered.
What about all the rugby members who are there on our match days though?

I think if the expectation is we take a significant proportion of sales (not even profit) then yo will be sadly disappointed but you maintain the choice to take your business elsewhere.

When you say significant what are you thinking? 25%, 50%, 75%?

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by DFCAnth » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:23 pm

Nobody knows the ins and outs of the deal, apart from people within both clubs. However, we have been told previously we could not function at Bishop in the long term and that a move back to Darlo was essential for the club.

If the deal is exactly same as the Bishop deal, and not greater, and the board were expecting crowds of 1500 then there wouldn't be that much benefit to moving as we were getting near to those crowds at Bishop. Although a higher graded ground was required we still must be getting a better deal or otherwise it wouldn't really add up.

Plus we are going to average 2000+ in Darlo which is more than the board anticipated.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by SwansQuaker83 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:47 pm

lo36789 wrote:
SwansQuaker83 wrote:I agree... Personally, I would not be happy if we have had to mark up beer/food because the rugby club want 100%. A percentage (in my opinion a significant percentage) of beer/food sales taken during a home game should go to us, the rest of the time they can have every penny I'm not bothered.
What about all the rugby members who are there on our match days though?

I think if the expectation is we take a significant proportion of sales (not even profit) then yo will be sadly disappointed but you maintain the choice to take your business elsewhere.

When you say significant what are you thinking? 25%, 50%, 75%?
If we were getting zero then yes I would eat/drink elsewhere... As I said if we are marking up then I'd rather drink in town and spend that additional pound on a 50/50.

I would say 50% of profit would be reasonable given those people simply would not be there buying anything if we werent playing there. Anything less than 25% wouldnt be fair in my opinion, I suppose it depends on other things like who staffs the bar, pays the electricity, perhaps in this sense 33% would be fair but I'm just plucking figures out of the air... Zero is not acceptable.

If rugby members are there on matchdays they should pay the same as our fans.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by footie fan » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:09 am

TDS wrote:Spoke to the guys behind the bar about it at Bishop and we didn't get a penny.
How would the people behind the bar know ?

To put the record straight , for the first season Darlington were getting half the net bar profits ( which believe me can be a real ball ache to work out ) An agreement was reached were the rent was reduced by what on average Darlos net profit was over the season . So in effect Darlington WERE getting money from bar sales .

Hope this helps .

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by TDS » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:03 am

footie fan wrote:
TDS wrote:Spoke to the guys behind the bar about it at Bishop and we didn't get a penny.
How would the people behind the bar know ?

To put the record straight , for the first season Darlington were getting half the net bar profits ( which believe me can be a real ball ache to work out ) An agreement was reached were the rent was reduced by what on average Darlos net profit was over the season . So in effect Darlington WERE getting money from bar sales .

Hope this helps .
It's largely irrelevant now but I've spoken to an ex-director of the supporters club who confirmed we got zero from the bar.

I mean, they ran the show, they bought the beer, why wouldn't they want the takings? This is Bishop by the way, I don't imagine things stay a secret in close knit clubs like that.

What is important is that as fans we feel we are asked for money with justification and to improve our club (something with which we have been extremely generous). What wouldn't be on is if simply to get back to the town we've given over too much and the Rugby Club are being slightly amateurish in thinking they can ramp the prices up, we are generous if we have a clear goal or some justification.

In terms of security, we don't have enough volunteers to manage a crowd of that size, private security is the only way forward for large attendances.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by super_les_mcjannet » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:10 am

Confirmation of the Bishop deal is above from footie fan, which does match why we had a rent reduction after about the first season. Knowing who footie fan is then you can take his account as 100% accurate, a reduction in rent to save the hassle about percentage of bar takings.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by lo36789 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:10 am

SwansQuaker83 wrote:If rugby members are there on matchdays they should pay the same as our fans.
But how do you calculate what they spent and what our fans spent. Or are you suggesting we should get a percentage of the profit on sales to rugby members just because it is our matchday (even though it is also their match day for their other teams which are there?).

They have taken on all costs, all electricity, all supplies, all staffing.

Given at Bishop we must have had at most 100 fans upstairs in Bishop when it was an open bar. If each buys 2 pints you are selling 200 pints of beer, if the beer costs £3 and assuming 50% of this is profit (taking into account all costs - no idea how accurate that is probably seems a bit generous) then you are making £300 per game.

If we are wanting to have 50% of that profit that is £150 per game (after all it is only fair if you are paying to staff/heat/light a bar that you would get a return - so the rugby club need to get something).

In perspective that is 13 fans through the gate.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by Quakerz » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:36 am

lo36789 wrote: Given at Bishop we must have had at most 100 fans upstairs in Bishop when it was an open bar. If each buys 2 pints you are selling 200 pints of beer, if the beer costs £3 and assuming 50% of this is profit (taking into account all costs - no idea how accurate that is probably seems a bit generous) then you are making £300 per game.

If we are wanting to have 50% of that profit that is £150 per game (after all it is only fair if you are paying to staff/heat/light a bar that you would get a return - so the rugby club need to get something).

In perspective that is 13 fans through the gate.
50% profit on beer? Most retailers are lucky to make 5-10% margin after all costs. I can't see a football club selling beer doing better than that. You can probably reduce your estimate to 2-3 fans.

As others have said, there's not a whole lot of profit in beer and pies. At all. Never has been, never will be. Providing refreshments is as much about providing those necessities as it is about profit.

It's actually not beyond the realms of possibility for clubs to make a loss on food once you take into account wastage, if the mark ups aren't worked out properly. That's why having a burger van who pays a fee to the club can be the best option. The club makes a small but guaranteed fee, the burger van takes the risk (but is more likely to make money because they specialise in food and will know stocking amounts better/get better wholesale deals etc). That's a win/win.

Realistically the impact of food/bar takings is often overstated by fans.

I think where we're going to make more money is through obviously more fans through the gate, but also greater advertising income, hopefully more sponsors, and more fans brings more merchandise sales and more people joining the supporters group, the lottery, and so on.
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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by lo36789 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:37 am

Quakerz wrote:50% profit on beer? Most retailers are lucky to make 5-10% margin after all costs. I can't see a football club selling beer doing better than that. You can probably reduce your estimate to 2-3 fans.
Meh really quite happy to be wrong on this. I was being exceptionally generous with absolutely zero knowledge.

You make the same point as me, but your figures make it even bolder and better.
Quakerz wrote:I think where we're going to make more money is through obviously more fans through the gate, but also greater advertising income, hopefully more sponsors, and more fans brings more merchandise sales and more people joining the supporters group, the lottery, and so on.
So basically everything that is completely irrelevant to 'the deal' which needs to be seen by every fan so they can decide whether it is the right thing to move to BM.
Last edited by lo36789 on Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stadium Blueprint with Waterpipe location

Post by Undercovered » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:38 am

Quakerz wrote:
lo36789 wrote: Given at Bishop we must have had at most 100 fans upstairs in Bishop when it was an open bar. If each buys 2 pints you are selling 200 pints of beer, if the beer costs £3 and assuming 50% of this is profit (taking into account all costs - no idea how accurate that is probably seems a bit generous) then you are making £300 per game.

If we are wanting to have 50% of that profit that is £150 per game (after all it is only fair if you are paying to staff/heat/light a bar that you would get a return - so the rugby club need to get something).

In perspective that is 13 fans through the gate.
50% profit on beer? Most retailers are lucky to make 5-10% margin after all costs. I can't see a football club selling beer doing better than that. You can probably reduce your estimate to 2-3 fans.

As others have said, there's not a whole lot of profit in beer and pies. At all. Never has been, never will be. Providing refreshments is as much about providing those necessities as it is about profit.

It's actually not beyond the realms of possibility for clubs to make a loss on food once you take into account wastage, if the mark ups aren't worked out properly. That's why having a burger van who pays a fee to the club can be the best option. The club makes a small but guaranteed fee, the burger van takes the risk (but is more likely to make money because they specialise in food and will know stocking amounts better/get better wholesale deals etc). That's a win/win.

Realistically the impact of food/bar takings is often overstated by fans.

I think where we're going to make more money is through obviously more fans through the gate, but also greater advertising income, hopefully more sponsors, and more fans brings more merchandise sales and more people joining the supporters group, the lottery, and so on.
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