Fan ownership in English football

[Darlo1991]

Hi

I’m a postgraduate student at Teesside University researching fan ownership of lower league football clubs.

I am looking to gain opinions from Darlington 1883 fans about fan ownership and if they feel it is a feasible option for clubs within the English game.

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

I have been given permission by Uncovered and mikkyx (moderators) to post on the forum.
I look forward to talking to you about your views and opinions.

[lo36789]

How do we contact you? Do you want PMs? Responses on this thread?

[Darlo will]

I'm happy to help out, how do you want us to contact you?

[charlie]

Me too if I can

[Darlo1991]

Hi

Thanks for your responses lo36789, Darlo will and Charlie. If you can comment on this threat that would be great.

I firstly would like to ask as fans from a fan owned club what is your opinion of fan ownership do you think it is a feasible option for clubs within the English game or just clubs within the lower league (below Football Conference).


Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[Darlo will]

Hi

Thanks for your responses lo36789, Darlo will and Charlie. If you can comment on this threat that would be great..

I don't like being threatened online thanks

I'll post something when i have finished at work

[Fatty eats roadkill]

You can start by not calling us darlington 1883!

[lo36789]

Ok.

So my thoughts. I don't want to be too harsh but I would be careful calling those in the lower leagues "outwith" the English game. I think the term you are looking for is Professional game.

clubs within the English game or just clubs within the lower league (below Football Conference).

.

It's quite a closed question. The simple answer is yes, if you can afford it. As long as a club can be self sufficient then there is no reason why fan ownership cannot work. Ultimately plcs and ltd companies are a success and operationally they shouldn't be much different, except you don't have dividends and the shares are not listed.

Exeter City and AFC Wimbledon are currently leading the way in England, demonstrating that it can work in the professional game.

There are some simple ingredients which I think you need.

a) A solid and well developed fan base.
b) A simple, well developed governance structure
c) Strong links to their community. There needs to be more to the football club than just the few that go to watch.
d) A ground. We are finding it difficult now, and it is only going to get more so to build a ground with just donations. Having a ground (with protection) is critical.
e) Realistic expectations - when other clubs are in 'project promotion', which invariably happens, you have to appreciate that your club doesn't have the finances to invest that heavily up front. You need to grow organically.

[Fatty eats roadkill]

And not call us Darlington 1883!

[lo36789]

And not call us Darlington 1883!

and that

[darlo in exeter]

fan owned clubs is a risky buisness just look at exeter now the novelty has warn off they are struggling recently 100k loan was taken out and an embargo placed. on the board are being blamed aswell as the trust who own 51percent for not actively trying to raise funds which while darlington at the momement has good fundraising group i carnt help thinking if we dont progress and sell players in future we could end up same way sorry if this seems negative we all have to keep raiseing and supporting d f c

[HarryCharltonsCat]

It's feasible as long as fans are realistic about where their resources can take the club. Trouble nowadays is everyone wants continuous success - if we end up constantly mid-table Conference North, forever leapfrogged by millionaire's vanity projects, how long would the core support keep going? I would hope for good, but realistically fear the worst.

[boorman]

Other than the obvious good thing of a load of people giving up time to do something for the good of their club and community, I like the fact that a fan-owned CIC structure has safeguards against asset stripping. It's explained quite well here: http://www.stenhousemuirfc.com/cic/

Feasible?

Yes in the sense that if your club has a structure that prevents rogue chairmen ever taking charge of it, you'll have a better chance of survival.

But no in the sense that fan ownership doesn't change the overall economics of football, which is that it makes a loss in most cases. You can't really call most of the game 'feasible' in business terms. Football clubs are basically vanity projects that happen to have wider community benefits - always have been. If you take the vanity/ego/philanthropy of a rich chairman out of it and leave it to fans to run it sustainably, you might well see a club settling at a lower level than it has been historically, because the numbers won't stack up at the original level (hence why they went under and became community owned in the first place). Wouldn't surprise me if clubs like Darlo rise up quickly but then get stuck in the Conference because they can't afford to go full time, then they go cap in hand to a chairman who promises to fund their quest to get into the league, and then you've lost your fan ownership and you're back to square one.

[theoriginalfatcat]

Brilliant post by boorman - and my thoughts are almost identical to his.

One thing that I find a little frustrating is the secrecy surrounding transfer fees/clauses/money etc. It's understandable when the owner is a Singh/Reynolds/Haughton type person putting in their money and in complete control, but a fan owned model is (or should be, in my mind) different and should be as open as possible. I know that others don't hold this view and someone will no doubt post " there's a difference between, fan owned and fan run " - I understand all that, but more openness would be better, it's a minor gripe.

D.F.C were forced down the route of fan ownership by having the misfortune of being involved with a sad succession of awful (for want of a better word) owners. In the end we had no choice in the matter, but I feel that if we ever get back to Conference level that will be as far as we get, and it will be a massive achievement.

[PaulMJohnson]

"You can't really call most of the game 'feasible' in business terms."

One of the most accurate, and tragic, statements I've ever read about the state of football.

[Darlo1991]

Hi Fatty eats roadkill thanks for your comment.

You highlight the name Darlington 1883 as a supporter of the club how did you feel when the FA would not allow the club to keep the name as Darlington Football Club?
I know many supporters still see the club as Darlington Football Club.

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[Darlo1991]

lo36789 do you feel Darlington and the supporters of the club can have the financial capability of competing within the Football League or is there any financial pressures which could prevent them?

You say plcs and ltd clubs are a success but could a fan owned club compete with these clubs?

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[Darlo1991]

darlo in exeter you say fan ownership is risky do you feel there is a lot of pressure on supporters to raise funds?

HarryCharltonsCat as a supporter where do you realistically see Darlington playing in the future do you feel they will reach a peak as a fan owned club? You also say "forever leapfrogged by millionaire's vanity projects" do you see the club being taken over by a millionaire in the future rather than being fan owned

boorman would you prefer Darlington as fan owned or would you like to be back in the Football League? Also do you ever think there will be a fan owned club within the Premier League?

theoriginalfatcat you highlight "secrecy surrounding transfer fees/clauses/money" how much control would you like as a supporter?
You say you would only get to the Football Conference why is this what is preventing Darlington from going further?
You also say forced to become fan ownership by poor mismanagement but in the future was this a good thing for the club?

PaulMJohnson what is your opinion on the state of football has football become to commercialised and driven by football?


Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[darlo in exeter]

yes there is a lot of pressure on fans to raise money again useing exeter as an example they are now on a reduced playining budget a) because season tickets sales have dropped which is due to poor performance which is a cruel circle b) the trust which owns 51 percent say they have raised all they can and are struggling to falling member numbers c) the board n trust also rely on the sale of at least one player a season with them not producing on the field they have nobody to sell .this seems to be a downward spiral which could happen to any fan owned club if money isnt kept and spent well so if darlington keep on going up i hope money is well looked after and the playing budget stays sensible not only relying on season ticket sales and donations and becomes self funding

[lo36789]

lo36789 do you feel Darlington and the supporters of the club can have the financial capability of competing within the Football League or is there any financial pressures which could prevent them?

You say plcs and ltd clubs are a success but could a fan owned club compete with these clubs?

I think we could survive if we could get into the FL. As far as I was aware when we were owned by the Sterling Consortium we were self sufficient.

If a club is self sufficient then fan ownership shouldn't really make much of a difference (that is why I made the comparison with other governance structures).

The problem is the leap into the FL There are always club with project promotion in the conference who are throwing money at it.

[theoriginalfatcat]

theoriginalfatcat you highlight "secrecy surrounding transfer fees/clauses/money" how much control would you like as a supporter?

I don't wish to have any control. Just more information re financial ins and outs. We're all in it together, so to speak.

You say you would only get to the Football Conference why is this what is preventing Darlington from going further?

boorman can answer this better than me - to quote him " If you take the vanity/ego/philanthropy of a rich chairman out of it and leave it to fans to run it sustainably, you might well see a club settling at a lower level than it has been historically, because the numbers won't stack up at the original level (hence why they went under and became community owned in the first place)."

You also say forced to become fan ownership by poor mismanagement but in the future was this a good thing for the club?

You write "poor mismanagement" but actually the mismanagement was of a very high standard

At the moment I think it's probably a bad thing. Some people may think it's a good thing because we will be in charge of our own destiny etc however I would have rather remained a well run league club - with capable/honest/reliable owner or owners in charge. Judging by our experiences, these type of people seem hard to come by, but they do exist.

If we can get back settled in the Conference and be run sustainably then I might have a change of heart. Small clubs will always struggle financially though, fan owned or not, it's inevitable.

[theoriginalfatcat]

I think we could survive if we could get into the FL.

Good point, it's a big IF though.

[princes town]

boorman would you prefer Darlington as fan owned or would you like to be back in the Football League? Also do you ever think there will be a fan owned club within the Premier League?

We already have a fan-owned club in the Premiership. There are fan-owned clubs in the Bundesliga, technically, under a different 50+1 structure. Therein lies an important point about what we actually mean by 'fan ownership'. Many private investors and business are also fans albeit not in the pure sense we understand it (one member one vote irrespective of investment). There is also a big issue about fan-owned as opposed to fan-run clubs. Strategy and Operations are 2 different things. Our model is probably a bit of both although how much say the CIC have on general club strategy is open to discussion., The CIC have certainly played a big operational role on the Blackwell project which is credit to those concerned. This is merely to say that I don't think there is a one size fits all model of fan ownership.

My own view based on observation is that the Swansea model is probably the best and most relevant model. I can remember visiting the decrepit Vetch field many years ago and it is a positive reminder of what can happen when the fans have a say. The Swans structure meets the dual needs of 'fan influence' through board representation while acknowledging commercial skill needs. It has to be acknowledged that running a premiership club is a huge enterprise. Even a small grassroots club like our own requires serious effort. The one thing that can be said is that fan ownership for all its benefits per se doesn't mean that a club can't go bust You still need people with the right commercial acumen to run it and more importantly who have the time as it is unlikely a fan club could ever pay the going rate for it. The Co-op is a sobering reminder of the dangers lurking behind member-based organisations, football or otherwise.

I would encourage you to access the good research tools that Supporters Direct have. There is also a great book called "The official history of the Swansea City Supporters Trust Phil Sumbler" that highlights the possibilities and trials of fan ownership. albeit partial. Happy to send this to you. I'd also encourage you to contact the Swans trust and any of the Trusts for that matter. Most have been at the heart of digging their respective clubs out of meltdown.

[boorman]

I would entertain the idea of a change in the club's ownership structure to a more old-fashioned model, but only if we had clearly lost momentum as a result of the current one.

I sincerely hope, and actually believe, that momentum is harder to lose with the current structure because there is generally more good will around the place, i.e. three consecutive seasons in the Conference North would be easier for fans to tolerate because they at least know the people running the show are in it for the right reasons. This might be naive though. If Darlo don't get promoted next season, that'll be a test of resolve.

I think it is possible for Darlo to get back to their previous level with a fan-owned structure - it's not beyond the realms that we could get 3,000 crowds if we ever got back in the Conference, and then maybe just maybe you could argue that there's enough profit in crowds of that size to fund a team good enough to get back in the league, but I think it's likely that at some point in the next 10 years we'll be faced with a dilemma about whether to relinquish at least some of the current fan ownership.

Broadly, I reckon that the feasibility of fan ownership is increased the more clubs out there actually do it. The doubts I have about it lasting forever are simply because a fan-owned club without bankrolling has to compete with other clubs that play by insane rules.

[spen666]

.... The doubts I have about it lasting forever are simply because a fan-owned club without bankrolling has to compete with other clubs that play by insane rules.

I completely agree with this. There are only a small number of clubs in football league that live within their means. 2 examples ( at present are Newcastle and Orient.

At Newcastle, Ashley (for all his faults) has ensured the club are not spending more than they earn. This common sense approach does not go down with the fans who demand he spend money the club does not have to chase success they are not going to achieve in the current climate.

The situation at Leyton Orient is similar, Barry Hearn has a similar approach. The club flirted with promotion to the Championship and heartbreakingly lost on penalties in the play off final. However, realistically, if Orient had won promotion, they would not have been able to compete at a higher level financially and would have come straight back down. A season losing most games would do nothing to make it enjoyable or encourage new fans.

As fans, of whatever club, we must be realistic and appreciate that our clubs can't all be Premiership clubs.

Football itself needs to put its house in order financially and somehow find a way to enforce prudent financial policies. IE The financial fair play rules should be properly enforced. Look at QPR for an example of why the current fair play rules are a joke

Fan owned clubs should be the aim for football

[Darlo1991]

Hi Boorman
You talk about CIC structures do you see more clubs going down this route in the future?
You also talk about the economic of football how do you think the globalisation of football especially the commercialisation of the English Premier League in Asian markets has impacted on clubs like Darlington?
You say “Football clubs are basically vanity projects” do you feel football has become more about money and has it impacted you as a supporter?

Hi Darlo in Exeter you highlight Exeter and the drop in attendances this also occurred with Darlington moving to Heritage Park do you feel the move back to Darlington will see an increase in fan numbers?
You talk about the Trust at Exeter what do you think are the benefits and weaknesses of Supporter Trusts? In many cases they are formed to increase financial revenue but is this putting pressure on supporters?
With the majority of clubs having Supporters Trusts do you see more clubs being in partial or full ownership by these trusts in the future?
Do you feel many clubs outside the league are used as feeder clubs for the top clubs with clubs like Exeter forced to sell players to keep afloat? Also what was your opinion on Greg Dykes B league plan?

Hi lo36789
What do you think could prevent a club being self-sufficient in the Football League and should the FA do more to help clubs outside the Football League rather than putting clubs in administration?
Also what is your personal opinion of the FA and FIFA?
Could Darlington do a 'project promotion' in the Football League?
How do you think the globalisation of football has impacted on clubs like Darlington?

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[Darlo1991]

Hi theoriginalfatcat
Thanks for your comment I stated poor management maybe leading the club into financial difficulties or administration may have been better. But was trying to highlight how the club was run under Reynolds and Singh.
As a supporter do you feel you opinions are taken on by the board (CIC)?
You say you want more info about finances but if you were a “well run league club - with capable/honest/reliable owner” would they discuss finances with supporters or would you be more in the dark about this information?
What is your opinion on the fit and proper person’s test has this had a positive or negative impact on clubs?
Do you think the club will become a financial burden on the supporters?
What is your opinion of businessmen/corporate organisations owning or being involved in football clubs?

Hi princes town
Do you feel there will be a club 100% owned by fans playing in the Premier League?
Currently AFC Wimbledon are playing in League Two could Darlington get back to this League?
Do you think it was good for the club and fans to go down the CIC route?
At Darlington do you feel fans are encouraged to engage in club decisions and are there viewed listened to?
Do you feel Supporters Trusts are the way forward in relation to fan ownership at the current moment in time?
If there was more of a commercial interest in non-league football as there used to be matches broadcast on ITV Digital and Setanta Sport before they collapsed do you think this would help clubs financially?
Thanks for your info on Swansea I will PM you

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[Darlo1991]

Hi boorman
What do you think is preventing more clubs becoming fan owned?
You say “other clubs that play by insane rules”- in many cases these clubs are in large amounts of debt would you prefer success and the possibility of debts or competing in the Football Conference as a fan run club?

Hi spen666
You highlight that Newcastle are running within their means. What is your opinion of football transfers and the money spent by clubs is this impacting the clubs in the lower divisions?
Football has also become a global sport with the Premier League targeting foreign supporters in the Asian markets how do you feel about this?
Do you think there is an issue with the divide between the Premier League and Championship should more be done to decrease the financial divide between these two leagues?
What is your opinion of the Premier League was the formation of this league good for clubs in the English game?
Do you think fan owned clubs will start to appear within the Football League?


Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[theoriginalfatcat]

Darlo1991, you're putting a lot of work into this

What is your opinion of businessmen/corporate organisations owning or being involved in football clubs?

As far as I'm aware businessmen etc have always been involved with football clubs. It's just good or bad luck as to the quality and motives that they possess.
So re this situation I don't really have an opinion - it is how it is. However, a lot of the time it would seem that these people have little regard for the history of the club and for the feelings of the town and the fans.

As a supporter do you feel you opinions are taken on by the board (CIC)?

I imagine that they would be, I have never contacted them though. I don't fully understand the set up of the CIC and I feel the structure of our club is complicated.

You say you want more info about finances but if you were a “well run league club - with capable/honest/reliable owner” would they discuss finances with supporters or would you be more in the dark about this information?

This is the whole point. If an owner (let's say Gibson from M'bro) works hard, puts money in and does his best for the fans/the town/the players/and the club - then I feel that because he owns the club and has legal responsibility he is quite entitled to keep the finances, to a certain degree, confidential.

So leading on from this, I feel that a fan owned club should be as transparent as possible. We give money when we can and alter our behaviour so as to be generous to the club - because we want to, and because we have an interest in it, however, certain things seem to be kept quiet. Personally, if I'm interested In something I like to know all about it, not just the bits I'm fed.

As I put previously, it's a minor gripe and it won't be easy for the people who run the club to balance out the info which is given out.

What is your opinion on the fit and proper person’s test has this had a positive or negative impact on clubs?

I'm not convinced this test even works! There's numerous stories in the press about dodgy "business men" taking over football clubs, and in any case how can you vet for future intentions? Like getting hold of a piece of valuable land and then selling it.

If the test works 10% of the time then I would say it has a 10% positive impact on clubs.

Do you think the club will become a financial burden on the supporters?

An interesting question! I think there's a possibility it could. There could be a financial emergency (again...) but it's not something that worries me. None of us have signed contracts and if we can't afford to chip in or we lose interest, we could go do something else. I feel people do stuff for Darlo because they want to, not because they have to.

[boorman]

You talk about CIC structures do you see more clubs going down this route in the future?
Yes, because I think almost every club that goes under in future will reform with some kind of structure like that, so the law of averages says there is going to be a boost to numbers.

You also talk about the economic of football how do you think the globalisation of football especially the commercialisation of the English Premier League in Asian markets has impacted on clubs like Darlington?
You could argue that it has reduced attendances, because some people will go down the pub or stay at home and watch it. But I wouldn't argue that actually, because I think football becoming more fashionable in line with globalisation has boosted the potential numbers for football across the board… look at attendances in the late 90s globalisation era in the lower divisions… I bet they're higher on average than the late 80s.
The biggest negative for me with globalisation is the amount of TV money that is sloshing about. This means that clubs no longer live and die by gate receipts, so they often aren't motivated to drop prices to entice fans in. They instead play safe, and rinse the die hards with high prices because they know they'll pay pretty much anything, rather than trying to get another 300 on the gate by dropping the prices. Not that Darlo are being televised in Asia, but the culture of TV money being the holy grail trickles down… I'm not 100% sure on this but I think a bottom-division professional club will be getting at least 300K per season in TV money.

You say “Football clubs are basically vanity projects” do you feel football has become more about money and has it impacted you as a supporter?
It has become more about money in terms of actual amounts, but I would say that at a philosophical level, there is no change whatsoever. Replace an 1890s Mill Owner chairman with a modern-day Oligarch and you've got the status quo. Hence, it hasn't really affected me badly as a supporter. Supporters will always get a raw deal however much money is in the game. So s*** stadiums and hooliganism when there was no money in the game, and now over-priced entry when there is more money in the game.
Why?
Supply and demand.
Football fans are fanatics. As long as that is the case, they will have the weakest poker hand in the whole equation.

What do you think is preventing more clubs becoming fan owned?
Because people just can't raise the money to depose a club ownership that has a different structure. You hear a lot of talk of fan takeovers when a club is in trouble, but more often than not they don't happen because some other chancers have better funding behind them.

You say “other clubs that play by insane rules”- in many cases these clubs are in large amounts of debt would you prefer success and the possibility of debts or competing in the Football Conference as a fan run club?
I'd prefer to be in the Conference with fan ownership. I've felt that since the club has reformed, the results don't matter as much - but that's a positive - a big positive that people are pulling together to run the show, and that whatever happens is done to try and benefit us as fans. I wouldn't know the names of most of them but to know that they are giving up their time for the sake of the rest of us is a nice thing… good on them.