Fan ownership in English football

[HarryCharltonsCat]

HarryCharltonsCat as a supporter where do you realistically see Darlington playing in the future do you feel they will reach a peak as a fan owned club? You also say "forever leapfrogged by millionaire's vanity projects" do you see the club being taken over by a millionaire in the future rather than being fan owned

Realistically, the Conference. Historically, we've never been a club with a big support. Ironically, the biggest averages have probably occurred when we were millionaire's vanity projects, and we signed "names" that the floating fan's had heard of. Having said that, Accrington and Morecambe are just about keeping their heads above water in D2. Our best chance is probably to try and do a Crewe, and develop a good youth structure, but then again that doesn't come cheap. You only have to look at Salford City to see what we are up against.

[lo36789]

What do you think could prevent a club being self-sufficient in the Football League and should the FA do more to help clubs outside the Football League rather than putting clubs in administration?

Simply over stretching yourself with players wages. Spending more than you bring in.

I don't know. I don't think the FA should be giving money out. Help with youth development would be the only financial support I'd want from the FA. Totally honest I think the FA has better things to spend money on though more on that in the next question.

Also what is your personal opinion of the FA and FIFA?

Bit of an odd question!

FIFA are a bit of a necessary evil. Somebody has to administer elite football cross-nationally and they do that. Who else will do it? Corruption is blatantly rife but what are you going to do, the cost of governance to manage/prevent it probably outweighs the benefit derived!

The FA. I think again they are there to administer football in England at ALL levels. I see tribunal after tribunal/appeal after appeal which require committee meetings that are just a cost. That money could be much better spent on good youth facilities, youth coaching and generally improving inclusion and participation across the nation.

They are too focussed on the elite. I don't know what you do about that though. If you don't get the elite game right it doesn't do the reputation for lower levels any good!

Could Darlington do a 'project promotion' in the Football League?

Could if they wanted. I can't imagine it being a very favourable decision though. By Project Promotion I refer to the spending of money the club don't have with the 'promise' of increased revenue the next season should they be promoted.

I wouldn't be surprised if it costs more to get promoted from League Two than it does to stay in League One. I don't know the comparable salary expenditure it is just a hunch. The benefit being you get a bigger cut of TV money (I think) and the visits of some quite decent clubs in League One as well (Charlton, Southampton, Leicester, Leeds and both Sheffield clubs in recent years.) this boosts your attendances and subsequent 'associated' revenues eg. sponsorship and other commercial revenues.

How do you think the globalisation of football has impacted on clubs like Darlington?

I think it has left lower league clubs out of sync with their communities more than ever before. The league is now quite full of ex Premier League youngsters who were earning upwards of £10k per week before their 18th birthday (recent example at Chelsea). This just drives up wage demands lower down and I don't think the money filtering down is balancing it out.

You shouldn't really be able to watch PL football for less than League Two football but you can.

[princes town]

Purely my views....................

Do you feel there will be a club 100% owned by fans playing in the Premier League?
Not without regulation and that won't happen because the FA sold out to the moneymen. There again, I don't think community ownership is about league status.
Currently AFC Wimbledon are playing in League Two could Darlington get back to this League?
Under community ownership, no. A strong fan base only gets you so far. Conference is my optimistic hope. Wimbledon are struggling where they are and you would say they are bigger than us.
Do you think it was good for the club and fans to go down the CIC route?
On balance, a cautious yes. The CIC have played an important part in securing an asset locked ground so that is a really good thing and they have a corporate director seat. Many of the things Dave Mills does are actually good CIC activities. My worry is volunteer fatigue.
At Darlington do you feel fans are encouraged to engage in club decisions and are there viewed listened to?
In the early days yes. Latterly, I'm not sure the influence is there although Dave Mills does try hard. At the recent Trust AGM, there were definite indications that relations between the CIC board and club board are going well.
Do you feel Supporters Trusts are the way forward in relation to fan ownership at the current moment in time?
They are the only way forward in respect of fan ownership. They are endorsed by Supporters Direct. I'm hoping they will be supportive of the CIC model we have. CIC and Industrial Provident broadly share the same social enterprise ethos although I think the CIC is a more solid structure for protecting assets from rogues.
If there was more of a commercial interest in non-league football as there used to be matches broadcast on ITV Digital and Setanta Sport before they collapsed do you think this would help clubs financially?
Not even debate about that one but I can never see coverage like that again. The best clubs like us can hope for is a good FA Cup run this year and possibly secure some coverage from that. Harrogate Town made an absolute packet from the FA Cup last year largely because of TV coverage of one game in their FA Cup campaign.

Thanks for your info on Swansea I will PM you

No problem.

[Spyman]

Developing a bit on what others have said, and sorry if it's been covered already:

While an increase in 'fan owned' clubs can be a good thing for the protection of those clubs long term, it could also create an even bigger gap between the rich and the poor.

As more clubs follow the model we've followed, avoiding rich financial backers, then eventually these clubs will find their level. The more clubs that are run within their resources, the higher that level will eventually become as the playing field starts to level out. You'd probably end up with clubs at Conference and even League Two that are able to compete on what they can generate through supporters and developing talent. However, their success will be dictated by the reduction in other clubs having big money to spend.

However, above that you're always going to have clubs with pots of money provided by oil barons etc, 'Artlepools of this world, who can live way beyond their means. Depending on the wealth and patience of their backers, the gap will just grow between these clubs and the ones being run sustainably.

Even in the Premiership age, there's still been fairytale stories - Wigan, Hull, Swansea - they've all risen through the leagues but they've all had rich backers. AFC Wimbledon have done well at a lower level but ultimately it looks like they've found their level and that'll probably be where they stick.

[Darlo1991]

Hi theoriginalfatcat
Thanks
As many clubs especially those in the Premier League target foreign supporters do you think this is impacting on the history of the clubs and local fans?
Would you have preferred the club to be run through a Supporter Trust structure?
You say “we can't afford to” do you see this as a result of the club getting promoted to the Football League and more financial pressure on supporters?
What’s your opinion on other factors including BskyB and increased TV coverage and the formation of the Premier League how have they impacted on clubs in non-league football?


Hi boorman
What do you think is resulting in clubs getting into financial difficulties and are fan owned clubs still in the same dangers of financial collapse?
You highlight the amount of TV money instead of the £3.018bn shared out between Premier League clubs would you like to see this divided between other clubs in and outside the league?
You state “high prices” do you feel fans are seen more as consumers by football clubs?
Do you ever see non-league matches ever being broadcast again on TV and would you personally like this would it result in yourself watching games on TV or would you continue to attend matches?
You say fans are fanatics and “weakest poker hand” but if the club goes into financial difficulty as a result of poor management would you ever boycott matches?

Hi HarryCharltonsCat
Do you ever see any of the clubs in Premier League being 100% owned by fans? There have been breakaway clubs including FC United of Manchester.
You highlight Salford City and the class of 92 do you ever seen any ex Darlo heroes coming back and buying the club?

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[Darlo1991]

Hi lo36789
Do you feel there is enough “money filtering down” and how do you think this can be increased?
You say you can watch Premier League football cheaper than League Two how much do you think they should be charging and do you see any differences between the fans in the PL than non-league are fans becoming consumers?
Would you prefer young talent rather than ex-Premier League players wouldn’t this result in the club becoming a feeder club?

Hi princes town
You say “FA sold out to the moneymen” do you think not having clubs with rich owners would impact on the quality of player and investment into the Premier League?
“I don't think community ownership is about league status.” What do you mean by this?
You say Darlington would reach the Conference do you think this is down to the fan size if they had similar fan base to Newcastle do you think they could reach a higher division?
Do think lower league clubs value the FA Cup more than clubs in the Premier League?

Hi Spyman
As more clubs become fan owned do you think the debt in the English game will decrease?
What do you think are the attractions of being fan owned and is this at the expense of success on the field?
What’s your opinion on the large amounts of money spent on transfers could this benefit a club like Darlington?

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[Darlo1991]

Hi

What's everyone's opinion on the situation at Hereford United?

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[lo36789]

Do you feel there is enough “money filtering down” and how do you think this can be increased?

I would probably argue that there is. The moment that it is impossible for a club promoted from the Championship (operating within its means) to survive in the Premier League is the moment there isn't enough money filtering down. That is when it becomes an exclusive club that people can't get into.

You say you can watch Premier League football cheaper than League Two how much do you think they should be charging and do you see any differences between the fans in the PL than non-league are fans becoming consumers?

It is difficult to say a specific price. Clearly it should be supply and demand - maybe partially full stadiums in the PL suggests that their pricing can be too expensive.

Look if I was going to throw prices into mix with no research what-so-ever on what I think is a fair price for a normal adult ticket.

PL - £30
Championship - £24
League One - £18
League Two - £15
Conference - £12

My argument falls apart as I am prepared to pay more than that to see Darlo and did regularly in the Conference. I am guessing at a fair price that would maximise attendance revenue though.

Would you prefer young talent rather than ex-Premier League players wouldn’t this result in the club becoming a feeder club?

It's not washed up Premier League talent that comes down. Those players earn so much now they don't even have to continue a career in the lower leagues they retire in the PL now.

It is players that PL clubs pay millions for based on their 'potential' stick em on very good contracts but it is worth the risk for them just incase they fulfill that potential. The problem is that the PL hoovers up youth talent and then spits them out again with unreasonably high wage demands.

The alternative is produce your own talent which fits your wage structure, if a higher division club comes knocking then you sell and you wish the player all the best. I wouldn't say you become a feeder club as only the real top talent will be taken. The players that you don't sell are those that could have been hoovered up in the past and spat out, the difference is they are on your terms not coming in with over inflated wage demands.

Clubs need to be stronger on this but the problem is there are competitors who might pay if you don't and you risk becoming uncompetitive.

[lo36789]

Hi

What's everyone's opinion on the situation at Hereford United?

I am not sure it is the Conference's place to get involved. The creditors have the option to petition for winding up/admin if they want. Since they weren't in admin it suggests this didn't happen.

[HarryCharltonsCat]

.Hi HarryCharltonsCat
Do you ever see any of the clubs in Premier League being 100% owned by fans? There have been breakaway clubs including FC United of Manchester.
You highlight Salford City and the class of 92 do you ever seen any ex Darlo heroes coming back and buying the club?

No, too much money involved now for it ever to be feasible.

I highlighted Salford as the latest Millionaire's plaything, and an example of why it will always be a struggle for a fan owned club to progress as far as they may be entitled to, were it a level playing field. These aren't ex-Salford heroes as such, just 5 multi-millionaires who happened to train nearby, and fancy a go at a real life version of Football Manager.

[Mr_Tibbs]

I would be quite happy staying this side of the non-league/league boundary and having a few good runs at the FA Trophy. I don't think we could just have a moneybags chairman come in now, could we, the way the club is now set up?

In any case I still think that more and more lower league clubs will need to "come down to our level" rather than the other way around. If we can sit it out for a bit and see the Conference as our (attainable) Premier League then I think we'll be ok financially and start to see promotion to League 2 (or maybe some new FL Div 1 North?) as less of a risky step up into the unknown.

OP - here's an org chart for you to help you see how we are set up. It's slightly out of date as far as people's names in the CIC box are concerned, but the general structure is the same.

As a fan-owned club for just 2 seasons we have a lot of people to thank for the time and effort put in on a voluntary basis. I think - now - we're at the point of trying to place less reliance on volunteers and put something in place which will kind of run itself, for instance with the latest advertisement for a commercial team who will work on a commission basis. Let them earn their corn. Hopefully we can build on that and start to move away from having everything run by volunteers.

[boorman]

What do you think is resulting in clubs getting into financial difficulties and are fan owned clubs still in the same dangers of financial collapse?
Clubs get into financial difficulty because there are so many gamblers behind the scenes, seduced by the fanaticism of fans and the market in general. So many hard-nosed businessmen lose all the common sense that made them rich first place, when they enter football. And only one or two clubs doing that forces others to fall into line to prevent their own club losing matches and getting relegated.

Because competition is so obviously measurable in football compared to other products (everyone can see a league table), this means there's more of a culture of keeping up with the Joneses. A business has to declare it's performance once per year, but a football club has it up there for all to see, every week, for the entire season. There is so little time for anyone to innovate and think long term. Brendan Rogers' spell in charge of Reading is a case in point. He basically imposed philosophies at Reading that have since been proven to be the work of genius at Liverpool, but because Reading lost too many games in the short term, he got the sack. And in the context of football, he deserved it. In football, you basically can't sacrifice the short term in order to have a better long term, so the short term strategy wins time and again, and short termism in any business loses you money.

Fan owned clubs I'd guess will broadly be safer because so many more people behind the scenes would have to sign off any temptation to gamble, but I wouldn't say they're immune. One disadvantage is that if a fan structure is 'too voluntary' if you like, you might not have enough corporate skill to run a complicated business successfully, so that could spell trouble.

You highlight the amount of TV money instead of the £3.018bn shared out between Premier League clubs would you like to see this divided between other clubs in and outside the league?
Most definitely. But it wouldn't definitely make things better. It would provide opportunity, but I couldn't guarantee a better future with more money in the bank. Maybe an extra 300K per year to every bottom division club would still mean that every bottom division club makes the same loss they always did, the only difference being that they all paid another 300K out in wages.

You state “high prices” do you feel fans are seen more as consumers by football clubs?
I think they're treated worse than consumers. People who go to McDonalds are consumers, but McDonalds know that if they balls up their product and/or put prices up, their consumers might go to Burger King. Football doesn't have that. If Darlo put up their prices and start losing games, the fans aren't exactly going to go up the road and watch Hartlepool, so each club can get away with more than your average consumer business.

Do you ever see non-league matches ever being broadcast again on TV and would you personally like this would it result in yourself watching games on TV or would you continue to attend matches?
No, I don't really - not in any great number. And good thing too. Keep non league about grass roots and the community - it's good for football that there is some kind of sanctuary out there from the big money and polish of TV coverage. I would still go to the games if Darlo were on TV.

You say fans are fanatics and “weakest poker hand” but if the club goes into financial difficulty as a result of poor management would you ever boycott matches?
I would only do it if it was clear it would make a difference, so a lot of other fans would have had to have organised something. I detect from your question that you think that sometimes fans do actually have a strong poker hand, i.e. the power of boycott, and you'd be right, but that's only when things get really really desperate. I don't think fans have any power whatsoever to make things better for themselves most of the time - they love their club too much to be boycotting games beyond very exceptional circumstances, and they're often kept in the dark about anything that might get them angry.

[theoriginalfatcat]

What’s your opinion on other factors including BskyB and increased TV coverage and the formation of the Premier League how have they impacted on clubs in non-league football?

I'm not sure BskyB and the premier league has had a lot of impact on non league football. I don't think the type of person who watches his (or her) Sky box would ever traipse up to Bishop Auckland to watch non league. The difference in the money generated is out of proportion but what could ever be done about that? It happens in music - the top stars can make millions per gig, a band in the local club £200.


As many clubs especially those in the Premier League target foreign supporters do you think this is impacting on the history of the clubs and local fans?


I'm not too keen on this courting of foreign "supporters" but this could just be me being old fashioned! Hull City's proposed name change and Cardiff playing in red, I don't like it and if it ever happened at Darlo ( ) I would probably walk away. To be honest I have little interest in the Premier league, it seems that it has little relevance to me - with foreign managers/owners/players etc.

Would you have preferred the club to be run through a Supporter Trust structure?

I can't comment as I don't know enough about it, however the old Darlo supporters trust wasn't very dynamic when administration no 3 kicked off.

You say “we can't afford to” do you see this as a result of the club getting promoted to the Football League and more financial pressure on supporters?

[/quote]

I think I wrote "we can't afford to" in relation to your question about the club possibly becoming a financial burden?

I took this question to mean a burden in the case of an emergency. Like, " we're going bankrupt, every fan needs to chip in £?? otherwise it's all over" If that were the case then each fan would need to make a decision as to what suits them. Affordability would be important.

As to promotion, that would be different. I trust the decision makers at the club to make the right choices and to make sure we can move at a pace that is sensible. There might be a situation where we possibly couldn't afford promotion. If that were the case the fans would need to have this explained.

And as for the Hereford thing I think it's really sad. They're a club similar to us who have hit hard times, I hope they can rebuild but it looks dodgy.

[Darlo1991]

Hi lo36789
Thanks for your comments so far.
You highlight prices for tickets do you think lower league clubs rely on a steady attendance compared to clubs further up the leagues?
Are admission prices resulting in more people staying away from matches?
How do you think wages are impacting on lower league clubs is it important for Darlington not to overspend and to develop local talent?

Hi Mr_Tibbs
You should like you like the fan run structure of the club do you think more clubs should become fan owned many fans complain about poor management of clubs so is this the way forward?
You say "come down to our level" what do you mean by this?
Many fans have agreed with what you have stated many see the Conference as the level that fan owned clubs can reach are you personally against a rich investor coming in and pushing the club up the leagues maybe to League Two or One? Do you prefer fan ownership and why?

Hi boorman
Thanks for your comments so far.
Do you think there is too much of a sacking culture in football and how important is it for Darlington to keep the same coaching staff in place?
Do you think it is a good thing that the club is investing in a commercial team to take the club forward or at non-league is it still important to have volunteers?
Do you see wages as one of the major financial factors which is impacting on clubs in all divisions?
But would fans still attend matches is the club started losing and put up the price or are they more likely to continue attending as they know own shares in the club? Would fans ever be persuaded to watch Newcastle or Sunderland matches?
You talk about community how do you think local fans at clubs in the Premier League are impacted by their clubs targeting foreign supporters is this impacting on the relationship between the club and fans?
Do you think one of the positive of a fan owned club is that it is run by fans from the local community how would you feel about foreign fans investing in the club?
How important are local supporters and how much impact did the move have on the fans and community?
Even though it is fan owned you would boycott the club or only if an investor was in charge? Is there a risk at fan owned club that fans may know too much?


Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[Darlo1991]

Hi theoriginalfatcat
You say the Premier League has had little impact but if the PL was not formed would money be more equally divided between all Football League clubs?
It was once stated by man utd chair martin Edwards that smaller clubs in the leagues 92 were “bleeding the game to death” and were not viable as businesses and should be put to sleep what is your opinion on this?
Do you think Leagues and the FA should do more to help clubs in financial issues are they to quick to expel clubs and put them in administration?

Hi HarryCharltonsCat
Would you ever be open to ex Darlo players coming and being involved in the club?
You highlight football manager Ebbsfleet Town was bought by fans through the website MyFootballClub do you ever see the internet being used by clubs to allow fans more involvement in management decisions (picking the team, transfer, etc.)?

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[lo36789]

You highlight prices for tickets do you think lower league clubs rely on a steady attendance compared to clubs further up the leagues?

Yes I'd say so. This isn't really based on empirical evidence but I imagine that in terms of percentage of income the gate revenues are higher the lower down the leagues you go.

Are admission prices resulting in more people staying away from matches?

Against I'd say so. Lower league football is of those things where you should be able to catch people who are at a loose end. £18 for a conference game doesn't do this.

How do you think wages are impacting on lower league clubs is it important for Darlington not to overspend and to develop local talent?

Wages cripple clubs. It is their main expenditure. If Darlington do overspend then we go bust, if we can develop our own talent then it breeds a better feeling and support from the town as well.

[HarryCharltonsCat]

Hi HarryCharltonsCat
Would you ever be open to ex Darlo players coming and being involved in the club?
You highlight football manager Ebbsfleet Town was bought by fans through the website MyFootballClub do you ever see the internet being used by clubs to allow fans more involvement in management decisions (picking the team, transfer, etc.)?

Never said I was against ex-players getting involved, if for right reasons. The Salford 5 aren't ex players, and I wonder how long their interest will last if success doesn't happen immediately.


As for internet involvement of fans, I sincerely hope not. Most fans are clueless when it comes to player assessments - trawl many of the threads on here. You pay a manager to manage - let him do it. You only have to look at voting on reality tv shows to realise Jo Public is not to be trusted. God help us on an EU referendum.

[shawry]

Ok, a couple things from my own personal point of view.

1. Its been stated that our Trust was not very active at the time of the 3rd administration, I thought they were, but their past was what let them down really, as it appeared that no one wanted to work with them.

2. "Fan owned requires too many people to sign off on spending" whilst this seems to be correct, thats not how its been for us, we've overstretched continually since becoming fan owned, with our 'purchased' debt we should have cut our playing budget accordingly, but we didnt want to lose fans, so we gambled.

[theoriginalfatcat]

Hi theoriginalfatcat
You say the Premier League has had little impact but if the PL was not formed would money be more equally divided between all Football League clubs?

I'm not sure about this. If the Premier league was in fact league division 1, would it still not keep the lions share of the money generated? I can't see much difference. I don't dislike the Premier league, it just doesn't interest me much and has little bearing on small clubs - like Darlo.

It was once stated by man utd chair martin Edwards that smaller clubs in the leagues 92 were “bleeding the game to death” and were not viable as businesses and should be put to sleep what is your opinion on this?

Are you on a windup Darlo1991 ?

I've not heard this quote before, however, to me it sounds self centred and arrogant .... and I take objection to it. I've always preferred lower league football to the top league stuff. You still get all the drama and passion - yet you're more of a part of it, you're closer to it, you get to meet the people involved.

In any case most of the bigger clubs seem to be debt ridden, so they are hardly viable as businesses.

Do you think Leagues and the FA should do more to help clubs in financial issues are they to quick to expel clubs and put them in administration?

The FA are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The bottom line is, rules need to be adhered to. It would be unfair for a well run club to be usurped by a club that doesn't stick to the financial rules.

However, there are certain aspects to our situation (the footballing share, for one) that I think were mishandled by the FA. My view is that it's easier for the FA to throw their weight around in the lower divisions, than to pick a fight with the big clubs.

[Mr_Tibbs]

Hi Mr_Tibbs
You should like you like the fan run structure of the club do you think more clubs should become fan owned many fans complain about poor management of clubs so is this the way forward?

I think so, yes. There's a growing disparity between the haves and have nots in the national game and a lot of the lower league clubs are finding it difficult - or quite crippling - to keep up. To see teams like Hereford with debts of over a million is quite sad. I think "fan ownership" is the way ahead, but some clubs need to start transferring ownership to their fans - something they might have to campaign for unless they have an owner who actually cares about the club and its fans.

Dorchester is a very good example of a club which tried to do that but also a good case to study in that it highlights how difficult it is to hit the right model of fan ownership, to get it through to fans that fan ownership does not mean that fans are entitled to know every detail of how the club is run (though they are entitled to stand for election to the board if they feel they need to be that much in the know), and fans also need to lower their targets of what to expect in terms of their club's sustainable level.

You say "come down to our level" what do you mean by this?

We are the kings of the wild frontier.

Many fans have agreed with what you have stated many see the Conference as the level that fan owned clubs can reach are you personally against a rich investor coming in and pushing the club up the leagues maybe to League Two or One? Do you prefer fan ownership and why?

Sell our souls to the devil, you mean? Yes.

I think the wider take-up of fan-ownership in some form is essential for the survival of the national game. In this case we will see a much leveller financial playing field. That's what I meant about "our level" - when the time comes when promotion to the football league doesn't mean having to compete with teams who simply buy promotion then I think we'll float back up to play against all of our old rivals again. Let the rich boys go and play in their land of make-believe and leave the rest of us to enjoy football for what we grew up loving it for.

[Darlo1991]

Hi lo36789
Do you think if there was no Premier League matches and if the tickets were cheap enough fans would attend more lower league matches?
What do you think about the high salaries in the top divisions and they increasing the salaries in the lower divisions?

Hi HarryCharltonsCat
So if fans got to make all the decisions at Darlington you would be against this what about the money for transfers or players’ salaries would you like to make decisions on this?

Hi shawry
What you opinions on Supporters Trusts and do you think clubs being owned by supporters trusts is a good thing?
Do you think being a fan owned club is a risk for supporters of Darlington and do you like being fan owned?

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[Darlo1991]

Hi theoriginalfatcat
No he stated it in 1985 I think it was. What do you think about the debt in English football do you think it is covered up by the top clubs as they are gaining high revenue from TV, etc.?
What’s your opinion of financial fair play?

Hi Mr_Tibbs
Do you think fans campaigning for more ownership would work or would the owners see this as them losing power?
Do you think it is important for fans to have a member of the board at any club?
Do you think the globalisation and commercialisation of football has ruined the game?

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[lo36789]

Do you think if there was no Premier League matches and if the tickets were cheap enough fans would attend more lower league matches?

Well assuming the PL was replaced by a top division I don't think this would make a difference. Lower league attendances will increase with affordability - lack of PL matches on TV may support I suppose.

There is a 12:30 KO on a Saturday finishes about 14:30 and a 17:15 KO. Given lower league games are played 3-5 on a Saturday afternoon they don't allow a huge amount of travel time.

I can see the flip side though that people are in the pubs near the ground watching the 12:30 KO, at 14:30 they walk to the 3PM KO and then back into the pub for 17:15. I am not convinced this happens much anymore though, particularly given the pricing, also more teams are playing out of town centres nowadays meaning this isn't easy to do.

What do you think about the high salaries in the top divisions and they increasing the salaries in the lower divisions?

I think I have answered this before. It is over inflating them, lower league clubs are setting prices in order to comply with financial fair play in terms of salary expenditure. This is making lower league football increasingly unaffordable. Think the driver should be reversed. Set your ticket price and then pay wages accordingly pretty hard stance to take when others aren't.

[Mr_Tibbs]

1. It's up to the fans to decide if their club is at risk and then take steps to reduce that risk.
2. I can't see that being a bad thing.
3. Of course.

[theoriginalfatcat]

Hi theoriginalfatcat
No he stated it in 1985 I think it was. What do you think about the debt in English football do you think it is covered up by the top clubs as they are gaining high revenue from TV, etc.?
What’s your opinion of financial fair play?

Hi.

I think the debt situation is ridiculous and that the figures are there for all to see if they wish.

Just looking at the big clubs - they make so much money from TV/tickets and all the other stuff, that they shouldn't need to carry any debts. A lot of the money probably goes on player wages that are far too high. Not that this bothers me ..... because I'm not funding it! So good luck to the players, and the taxman too!

Teams like Man City spend more money than they make, which makes me conclude that the "business" of football is truly mad. Clubs fall into debt chasing the dream, they do it because everyone else is doing it, and so it goes on, until occasionally a team will hit the buffers - in debt, in trouble and on it's knees. It's happened to us! The money men cock up and then vanish, leaving all the problems to the fans and the people who really care.

So to go full circle about "Fan ownership in English football" this is why it's a good thing. As a Darlo fan I can now watch from the side lines as other clubs go into administration and get mismanaged and implode, because it WILL happen and I WON'T glean any pleasure at all by watching it happen.

Financial fair play is a good thing, and I hope the rule makers keep on tweaking it and changing it until it really works. It worries me slightly that straight, no strings attached gifts, might be outlawed. I don't know if they are or will be? In our case, as I understand it, our assets are locked in to the club, and so can't be messed with in the future. So if any kind individual or business wanted to chip in a large sum as a gift, this should be allowed.

Incidentally, Greg Dyke's stupid idea about a new league for "B" teams blows a hole in the financial fair play thing. How can it be fair that a league 2 or Conference team, which has to abide by financial rules governing income and wages etc compete against a team that doesn't ? Chelsea "B" won't be a proper team, will have minimal fans, minimal income, yet pay their starlets probably 10 times as much per week.

[Darlo1991]

Hi Mr_Tibbs
Can you expand on how you think the globalisation and commercialisation has impacted on clubs

Hi theoriginalfatcat
Do you think the high wages are impacting on lower league clubs and is this a good or bad thing?
How do you think TV coverage of Premier League games has impacted on lower league clubs?

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.

[theoriginalfatcat]

Hi theoriginalfatcat
Do you think the high wages are impacting on lower league clubs and is this a good or bad thing?
How do you think TV coverage of Premier League games has impacted on lower league clubs?

In my view what goes on in the Premier League has minimal bearing on lower league football, so it's neither good or bad, it is what it is.

Premier League/lower league - they're like two different worlds.

[HarryCharltonsCat]

Hi HarryCharltonsCat
So if fans got to make all the decisions at Darlington you would be against this what about the money for transfers or players’ salaries would you like to make decisions on this?

Just not feasible - you elect a board and hire a manager, and they make these decisions on the club's behalf. You make sure they are aware of the ethos of the club, and if they don't act within that remit, you replace them. Otherwise, it's like electing MP's, then having a referendum every time they want to make a policy decision.

[shawry]

Hi shawry
What you opinions on Supporters Trusts and do you think clubs being owned by supporters trusts is a good thing?
Do you think being a fan owned club is a risk for supporters of Darlington and do you like being fan owned?

Im happy to be either fan/trust/business man owned to be perfectly honest.

There are a lot of good owners in football, just we've had the bad ones.

Fan/trust ownership are essentially the same to me, and what they should do is remove the risk of the bad owners, but until true sustainability is brought in we will always be at a disadvantage.

[Darlo1991]

Hi theoriginalfatcat
You say the Premier League doesn’t impact on lower league clubs but what about the transfer of Dan Burns to Fulham? Are many top clubs using lower league clubs as feeder clubs?
Also as English players draw big transfer fees do you think it is important for Darlington to develop young talent at the club?


Hi HarryCharltonsCat
Do you see more clubs becoming fan owned from lower divisions Conference and below?
What is your opinion on Supporters Trust would you prefer this over the CIC structure?

Hi Shawry
What is your opinion on the fit and proper person’s test?
Do you personally see more clubs in the lower divisions becoming fan owned/trust and is this a good thing for football?

Any information you give me will be anonymised and used solely for journal articles. I will never ask for or record any information that might lead to forum members being identified (such as names, email addresses or IP addresses). You have to option to withdraw from the study from 6th June - 6th August 2014.