Fan ownership in English football

[Darlo1991]

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[theoriginalfatcat]

Hi theoriginalfatcat
You say the Premier League doesn’t impact on lower league clubs but what about the transfer of Dan Burns to Fulham? Are many top clubs using lower league clubs as feeder clubs?
Also as English players draw big transfer fees do you think it is important for Darlington to develop young talent at the club?

Dan Burn. Good point. If Darlington (or any small club) unearths a talent, develops it then does business with a Premier League club - this is surely good news for everyone involved. I don't think this has anything to do with the term "feeder clubs" - which implies that the smaller club somehow belongs, and is inferior to the bigger (mother) club. which to me is distasteful. No club should ever be linked with another.

Re the players, there's obviously football people watching most games, and as one of our previous managers used to say "cream rises to the top"

It's vital that Darlo continue to develop young talent. We've done it before (find good young players) and we can do it again. Even if there is a cost involved, I reckon it's a good investment

[Darlo1991]

Hi theoriginalfatcat

Would you be happy if the club kept selling the young talent?


Hi Everyone

In relation to fan ownership if more clubs were fan owned do you think the debt in the game would decrease?

Also what is the attraction of lower league football and Darlo?

Before you were fan owned did you feel your views were listened to by previous owners?

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[theoriginalfatcat]

Before you were fan owned did you feel your views were listened to by previous owners?

Only when it suited their agenda. Apart from the lack of funds - the system we have now is better for fan involvement. If the majority of us felt strongly about a certain issue we could get together and force something to be done about it.

Would you be happy if the club kept selling the young talent?

As long as the deal was right for everyone concerned, then yes. It wouldn't be fair to a young player to keep him against his wishes if he got a good opportunity. I think the fact that we are fan owned is irrelevant here.

[Darlo1991]

Hi theoriginalfatcat

Do you think that the lack of communication between owners and fans is a major problem within the game?


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[theoriginalfatcat]

Do you think that the lack of communication between owners and fans is a major problem within the game?

Not a major problem-but yes, it can be a problem. Football is unlike any other business, so it must be hard for the people who come into it to realise that they have to start explaining their ideas and actions to their customers/fans - some of whom have been around a lot longer than they have.

Sometimes the fans expectations are unrealistic, sometimes the owners have dodgy agendas.

If the owners want the best for the club (players/fans/heritage/stadium) and communicate well with the fans, then things should be relatively harmonious.

The sad thing is that having a suitable and sensible owner seems to be potluck! Some clubs hit lucky, others (us in recent history) don't.

[Darlo1991]

Hi theoriginalfatcat

You say some clubs hit lucky with sensible owners.What teams do you think have good owners and do you think businessmen should be getting involved in lower league football as there is so little financial reward for owners?

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[theoriginalfatcat]

Hi theoriginalfatcat

You say some clubs hit lucky with sensible owners.What teams do you think have good owners and do you think businessmen should be getting involved in lower league football as there is so little financial reward for owners?

Sensible owners? I'm not sure I have the knowledge to name many clubs off the top of my head. Steve Gibson at M'bro springs to mind. He's been there for a while, continuously pumps money in and seems to have a genuine interest to do the right thing. The fans may moan etc.........but fans always do!

Mike Ashley! Is he good or bad? To me he's good in many ways. The club makes money (not easy to do) and they usually compete well in the Premier league. Newcastle employ too many foreign players for my liking and Ashley seems to have spoilt that Newcastle vibe, but compare the state of Newcastle United to Leeds, Blackburn, Coventry or Sheffield Wednesday.

A sensible owner should have a realistic vision and be able to stick to it. He (or they) need to be good at business but conversely also be prepared to lose money on a regular basis. It also helps if they can negotiate and get on with all other necessary people, Radjed Strings take note

Why businessmen get involved Boorman explains well here ....on page 1 of this thread.

"Football clubs are basically vanity projects that happen to have wider community benefits - always have been. If you take the vanity/ego/philanthropy of a rich chairman out of it and leave it to fans to run it sustainably, you might well see a club settling at a lower level than it has been historically, because the numbers won't stack up at the original level (hence why they went under and became community owned in the first place)."

And speaking of Boorman and Harrycharltonscat and lo and Shawry and everyone else. Where have you all gone ?????

Businessmen will always be involved at all levels, I can't imagine any other alternative as professional football clubs are businesses and as such can be bought and sold. I think the number of fan owned clubs will increase, but slowly, as it will only happen because of financial emergencies. The stronger clubs (us hopefully) will eventually find their way back to somewhere near to where they were.

The fan ownership thing (again hopefully) will help the fans realize what they've got. Use it or lose it!

Unfortunately I have a dislike of foreign owners. Can they really understand the history and heritage of the club? The fans? The local community? In my view no.

If I had money to burn I would like to own a football club.

[shawry]

Hi Shawry
What is your opinion on the fit and proper person’s test?
Do you personally see more clubs in the lower divisions becoming fan owned/trust and is this a good thing for football?

Apologies for delay in responding..life has been hectic.

The fit and proper persons test is a bit of a joke tbh, however, it would be largely irrelevant if clubs were unable to overspend, and owners were not allowed to loan money to clubs.

The 2nd part of your question is more difficult, if Financial Fair Play is introduced properly, and it means that clubs cant spend money they dont have, then more clubs would be self sustaining anyway.

FFP is the way to go in my opinion, stop clubs getting into massive debt chasing a dream, loans/investments only allowed for sensible/necessary ground improvements which need to be sanctioned by the league.

Accounts need to be submitted to the league every year, and points deductions/demotions if clubs keep failing to do so.

Essentially if the league/FA governed clubs correctly, then fan ownership either wouldnt be necessary, or wouldnt be a hinderance (unless owners gift money to clubs which I guess is the same as us doing fund raising).

[spen666]

Hi Shawry
What is your opinion on the fit and proper person’s test?
Do you personally see more clubs in the lower divisions becoming fan owned/trust and is this a good thing for football?

Apologies for delay in responding..life has been hectic.

The fit and proper persons test is a bit of a joke tbh, however, it would be largely irrelevant if clubs were unable to overspend, and owners were not allowed to loan money to clubs.

The 2nd part of your question is more difficult, if Financial Fair Play is introduced properly, and it means that clubs cant spend money they dont have, then more clubs would be self sustaining anyway.

FFP is the way to go in my opinion, stop clubs getting into massive debt chasing a dream, loans/investments only allowed for sensible/necessary ground improvements which need to be sanctioned by the league.

Accounts need to be submitted to the league every year, and points deductions/demotions if clubs keep failing to do so.

Essentially if the league/FA governed clubs correctly, then fan ownership either wouldnt be necessary, or wouldnt be a hinderance (unless owners gift money to clubs which I guess is the same as us doing fund raising).

I agree with all of the above.

The difficulty would be in relation to the monitoring of this. Accounts can be drawn up in many different ways and accountants would find loopholes in such rules.

[shawry]

I agree with all of the above.

The difficulty would be in relation to the monitoring of this. Accounts can be drawn up in many different ways and accountants would find loopholes in such rules.

Im not too bothered about short term loopholes, where an owner finds a way to inject some cash, or pay someone outside of the clubs finance structure, its more about ensuring that if an owner decides enough is enough then he cant say the club owes him a shed load of cash.

Any loans for ground improvements need to be affordable in the clubs finances, and drawn up accordingly, so that an owner cant demand it all at once if he leaves.

[Darlo1991]

Hi theoriginalfatcat
You highlight Steve Gibson at the boro he looks like an owner who is willing to invest money into a club but do you think there will be a point when he will walks away because he has put so much into the club? Is it really sensible for an owner to keep putting money into a club destined to stay in the Championship for season after season and who doesn’t not attract large attendances to fill the stadium?
Mike Ashley is he using the club to promote Sports Direct and do you think this is right that he can put his logo all over the stadium ST James is an iconic stadium and has caused conflict with the fans over the years?
You say a lot of foreign players (French) but isn’t this impacting the British players and the rule that British teams need a certain number of British players in their team?
Do you think it is sad that fans are more likely to take over a club because of a financial emergency rather than having the power to get rid of a poor owner?
I have to agree with you on the foreign owners unless they have attended matches when they were young and understand the history of the club it is hard to see why they are getting involved other than money or trying to raise their other business profile. Do you think there should be a cap on foreign owners?
You say “If I had money to burn I would like to own a football club” - Do you think you would like being a football club owner and what would your goal be would you be content being a lower league club or would you aim for the trophies and European success?

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[Darlo1991]

Hi Shawry
No worries thanks for engaging in the study. Everyone’s comment have been really helpful.
How do you think the FFP can be changed to prevent clubs over spending does there need to be a cap on player wages/ transfer fees as they are really high at the minute?
You say loans for grounds do you think this would benefit Darlington as they are coming back to share Blackwell? But also what about Championship clubs who increase stadium capacity to keep up with the Premier League is this good or bad?
Fan ownership wouldn’t be necessary – do you think fans really want fan ownership?
What about owners who invest money into the club do they have to expect to have none of that returned if they leave the club?


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[Darlo1991]

Hi spen666
“Accountants would find loopholes in such rules”- do you think football is corrupt and what punishment can the FA implement to stop clubs going into debt?

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[spen666]

Hi spen666
“Accountants would find loopholes in such rules”- do you think football is corrupt and what punishment can the FA implement to stop clubs going into debt?

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Football IS corrupt at many levels (Qatar 2022 world cup?). However my comment was more aimed at the near impossibility of drafting regulations to bring about the ideas that Shawry helpfully raised. Look at the difficulty the Government have with people come Ming up with legal (albeit immoral) ways to avoid tax.

[theoriginalfatcat]

Do you think it is sad that fans are more likely to take over a club because of a financial emergency rather than having the power to get rid of a poor owner?

No. It's the way of the world really. An owner owns something until they sell or lose it - fans can't gang up and force someone out, it wouldn't be fair. The fans own Darlo now so it works both ways.

Do you think there should be a cap on foreign owners?

Yes definitely. I think they have this in Germany.

You highlight Steve Gibson at the boro he looks like an owner who is willing to invest money into a club but do you think there will be a point when he will walks away because he has put so much into the club?

I think that he has the club's best interests at heart, but there is a risk that he could hit hard times, which could be a problem. He will obviously hand over to someone else at some stage, when he retires possibly?

When the main man from Rushden and Diamonds (Max Griggs) decided to call it a day, it didn't take long for the club to implode, which could in theory happen to any lower league club when their benefactor steps aside.

Is it really sensible for an owner to keep putting money into a club destined to stay in the Championship for season after season and who doesn’t not attract large attendances to fill the stadium?

It's definitely not sensible but if he enjoys it and can afford it then that (to me) makes it OK. It's better that the club stays in the Championship "for season after season" than take an over ambitious gamble on reaching the Premier league.

Mike Ashley is he using the club to promote Sports Direct and do you think this is right that he can put his logo all over the stadium ST James is an iconic stadium and has caused conflict with the fans over the years?

I think the Newcastle fans should get real !!! The club is sponsored by Sports Direct, so what? All clubs are sponsored by someone, look at Arsenal and their stadium. Newcastle are in a good financial position, and the fans should appreciate this more. Ashley does do silly things though, he could make things much easier for himself. He reminds me a little of a wealthier George Reynolds.

And re the too many French/foreign players, I think it spoils things. I know a person who has been a regular for decades, but who now feels that the club has lost it's soul. I know there is a rule about the number of foreign players in a playing squad, however it doesn't seem to be very good - and needs strengthening.

Do you think you would like being a football club owner and what would your goal be would you be content being a lower league club or would you aim for the trophies and European success?

I would be a brilliant football club owner but the lower leagues would do for me. You get the same drama/excitement/problems as higher up but without the silly wages/egos etc.

[shawry]

Hi Shawry
No worries thanks for engaging in the study. Everyone’s comment have been really helpful.
How do you think the FFP can be changed to prevent clubs over spending does there need to be a cap on player wages/ transfer fees as they are really high at the minute?
You say loans for grounds do you think this would benefit Darlington as they are coming back to share Blackwell? But also what about Championship clubs who increase stadium capacity to keep up with the Premier League is this good or bad?
Fan ownership wouldn’t be necessary – do you think fans really want fan ownership?
What about owners who invest money into the club do they have to expect to have none of that returned if they leave the club?

FFP need to be done so clubs cannot ever spend more than it makes, infact it needs to be less than what it makes. If clubs need to submit accounts that show income and expenditure, and show that no loans to the club are made that can be withdrawn on a whim then that would go a long way to stabilising many clubs.

With regards to loans for grounds, while we would all like to just have a pot of money, its obvious that for things like ground improvements are needed, this needs to be built into FFP, and if you cant afford it then you cant have it. The owner should never be allowed to stump up the cash then demand it back when he gets bored and moves on, so it also needs structuring into FFP and proper loan agreements drawn up, rather than directors loans. If your playing budget needs reducing to accommodate the loan repayments, then as unfortunate as it is, then so be it.

Fan ownership - Ultimately, no, I dont think fans want fan ownership, its hard work, time consuming, and never ending. From a fantasy point of view though, we've proabably all dreamed of winning the Euro Millions and buying our club.

Ultimately, under my vision of FFP, no owner would lose money unless he gifted money to the club, I find it reasonable enough that an owner is entitled to draw a reasonable income from the club, but it has to count against expenditure, and so will reduce playing budget. I'd also have no real objection to them claiming 10% of any yearly profit.

Ultimately though it all depends on a Utopian type of FFP, and thats just never going to happen.

[Darlo1991]

Hi theoriginalfatcat
Why do you think foreign owners are interested in investing in English football?
You highlight Rusden and Diamond do you think clubs and fans rely too much on the income from owners?
Do you think the influx of foreign players is impacting lower league clubs or is it beneficial as clubs can command a higher transfer fee for British talent?


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[theoriginalfatcat]

Hi theoriginalfatcat
Why do you think foreign owners are interested in investing in English football?
You highlight Rusden and Diamond do you think clubs and fans rely too much on the income from owners?
Do you think the influx of foreign players is impacting lower league clubs or is it beneficial as clubs can command a higher transfer fee for British talent?

Foreign owners. I think amongst the extremely rich there is a kind of kudos for owning a football club, and where better to have one than England! I'm not sure if they are attracted by making money as I'm not sure if there is profit involved, unless there is some kind of tax avoidance benefit. To own a club must be the ultimate adventure for a football loving billionaire.

Income from owners. Owners will probably always pump money in, I suppose that's the price they pay for having control. It's possibly not a bad thing as long as they can't lie about it, or call it a loan then take the club down when they pull out. I reckon a lot of fans don't care how the club gets by as long as they can turn up on a Saturday and watch an enjoyable match. I suspect we as Darlo fans have a wider view about all of this. I know I've written this before but boorman really nails all this in his first post- when he writes "Football clubs are basically vanity projects that happen to have wider community benefits - always have been............."

Foreign players. I'm not sure about this. Whether it has any effect on teams like us or not. Perhaps we are too far down the leagues for us to feel the ripples of the foreign invasion.

Fulham wanted a defender and we sold them Dan Burn. Did they buy him because he was English? Probably not. Did the fact that the Premier League is stuffed with foreign players effect the price they paid us? Probably not.

[Darlo1991]

What about owners like Reynolds and Singh why do you think they became involved with Darlington?
What impact did moving to the stadium (Arena) have on the club and fans?

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[shawry]

What about owners like Reynolds and Singh why do you think they became involved with Darlington?
What impact did moving to the stadium (Arena) have on the club and fans?

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Reynolds..ego
Singh....land

If the stadium was 10k all seater, and had properly engaged the fans and community, then it would have been ok I think, ultimately, the size of the stadium put many fans off, and the cost of running it almost killed the club.

[theoriginalfatcat]

Reynolds..ego
Singh....land

Spot on shawry.

If the stadium was 10k all seater, and had properly engaged the fans and community, then it would have been ok I think, ultimately, the size of the stadium put many fans off, and the cost of running it almost killed the club.

And yes, this too. Also team investment was never anywhere near complimenting the look and feel of the stadium and it all got a bit silly. If G.R had managed to build a team to take us up into division 1, we might of been able to make a go of it.

Reynolds was a maverick - don't get me going about Singh.

[Darlo1991]

Thanks everyone for engaging in the study.