Blackwell

[lo36789]

I anticipate the terrace to the be the most expensive and I did actually include it in my comments.

I was wondering what the rules would be in terms of unqualified/unskilled labour doing the works. I guess I hold out some hope for some fans having the needed skills when it boils down to it.

There was actually something really important that I missed which is the access works and the car park. I can't remember what was needed here but it won't be cheap!

[ted_do]

lo: Don't forget the fund is £75K (hopefully supplemented by grants) Initially £20K is for the preliminaries, before a bead of sweat has been shed on the practical element.
In essence leaving £55K

I have a Management & H&S back ground. I currently work as a Operations Manager, and often step over into PM & Procurement.

Given the nature of this project, most elements will be one off, therefore any purchasing leverage and discounts are made more difficult.
Often I am stunned how little you can get for your £, seldom am I amazed the other way.
I think there are other considerable cost that you may have overlooked,
a) Transport of the HP temp stand
b) 4 Step concrete terracing
to mention a couple.

I think you are right that with regard to skills forthcoming from the fan base, which on the face of it should reduce costs, providing it can be organised, managed, controlled etc.
My concern on this would be the legalities, it is after all a construction project, will be subject to things such as CDM Regulations and all manner of Environmental Health & Safety Regulations and god knows what else.

All of these will cost time and money. I cannot see the "all turn up with hammer and nails" for certain aspects being acceptable. The reputational risks would be to considerable.

Having been involved a little with the RA upgrading Brinkburn road, most of the work was done by fans, players and work contacts (Woodys), the stuff needed to get Blackwell to NPL level is not much more than getting Brinkburn to NL level, ie fence, hard standing, turnstyles and a few seats.
I think some people are looking at things with an over professional eye, whilst we cant have kids or nuggets doing work, with a few RAMS risk assessments and method statements we can use unskilled "fan" labour to complete most tasks and once complete you then get the lot safety inspected, if this highlights an issue just redo it as its never that much.

Although My NEBOSH Risk assessment training did not include a section on “recycling” stuff from Feethams at Midnight

[tezza]

I seem to recall that the council were somehow assist with this.
Not entirely sure of the extent, may be related to permissions.

There will always be the unforeseen, just hope Great Crested Newts are not found

[Bogratsteve]

lo: Don't forget the fund is £75K (hopefully supplemented by grants) Initially £20K is for the preliminaries, before a bead of sweat has been shed on the practical element.
In essence leaving £55K

I have a Management & H&S back ground. I currently work as a Operations Manager, and often step over into PM & Procurement.

Given the nature of this project, most elements will be one off, therefore any purchasing leverage and discounts are made more difficult.
Often I am stunned how little you can get for your £, seldom am I amazed the other way.
I think there are other considerable cost that you may have overlooked,
a) Transport of the HP temp stand
b) 4 Step concrete terracing
to mention a couple.

I think you are right that with regard to skills forthcoming from the fan base, which on the face of it should reduce costs, providing it can be organised, managed, controlled etc.
My concern on this would be the legalities, it is after all a construction project, will be subject to things such as CDM Regulations and all manner of Environmental Health & Safety Regulations and god knows what else.

All of these will cost time and money. I cannot see the "all turn up with hammer and nails" for certain aspects being acceptable. The reputational risks would be to considerable.

Having been involved a little with the RA upgrading Brinkburn road, most of the work was done by fans, players and work contacts (Woodys), the stuff needed to get Blackwell to NPL level is not much more than getting Brinkburn to NL level, ie fence, hard standing, turnstyles and a few seats.
I think some people are looking at things with an over professional eye, whilst we cant have kids or nuggets doing work, with a few RAMS risk assessments and method statements we can use unskilled "fan" labour to complete most tasks and once complete you then get the lot safety inspected, if this highlights an issue just redo it as its never that much.

Although My NEBOSH Risk assessment training did not include a section on “recycling” stuff from Feethams at Midnight

Having the SMSTS qualification and being a Contracts/Project Manager in construction circles I can speak with a little knowledge on this and unless the project is running for over 500 person days or 30 days total then we do not need an F10 and do not need to notify HSE, therefore CDM regs do do not apply.

In terms of using "unskilled" or Volunteer labour as long as the RAMs have been completed correctly and we have welfare facilities, liability insurances etc provided then there should be no issue, we do need to demonstrate however that people are suitably trained for the jobs in hand and correct PPE is supplied for the task, the majority can be covered off with toolbox talks on the day.

No reason why we can't rope one of the hire companies in to supply or sponsor some aspects of the works should this be the route we go down.

If there is any issue with pigeons etc in the stands/covered areas i'm sure I can get my teams to undertake the work at very good mates rates (cover expenses to the lads to travel up) Materials i can supply free most likely, also my lads are PASMA & IPAF & IRATA trained so could supply skilled operatives if this sort of kit is required but I suspect the Club will have to go down the route of having a Main Contractor involved and the full set up related to this type of build.

I would say trying to get local contractors to supply at cost plus materials would be a worth while project with recognition in terms of advertising etc but i'm sure the Club have this in hand.

[ted_do]

Yep we could try and get a local builders supply company onboard like the RA had with MKM, who helped out a lot, although this was due to Martin, I`m sure DFC fans must have mates and companies that can help. We the fans could dig out the footing for post and paths with the pros laying the concrete.
With the clubhouse and floodlights aready there the job should not be that hard, we CAN do it>

[tezza]

Jobs a good un ... all the skills are coming to the fore ..excellent couple of posts

[derbyshire exile]

CDM is what I do for a living. I would cover this aspect and am happy to give advice and assist.

[Bogratsteve]

CDM is what I do for a living. I would cover this aspect and am happy to give advice and assist.

Arghhhh the elusive CDM coordinator that you hear about but never see lol

[tezza]

Derbyshire exile: Excellent. We have the skills, can we rebuild

[olrad]

Is there an avenue for people to register their skills , contacts and ideas ? Once a programme and B of Q's (put together by a suitable project manager, designer and QS....that we are bound to have amongst our volunteer fan base) i am sure we will be able to draw between us the best possible price in regards to plant .labour and materials. Is there a group being set up to help bring all this together or at least a register of real interest , skills and availability ,and any contacts that may be beneficial in regards to all aspects of the build.

[Bogratsteve]

Once plans are sorted with council then a meet is probs needed if not before, happy to attend and see what I can put together.

Maybe a linkedin closed group or something for network exchange, the club have a presence on there

[derbyshire exile]

Hopefully the club is looking at its current sponsors as a good starting point. I am one of them and have had no contact at the moment. Once the key people are identified as Olrad mentioned then their contacts could be used and so on. Hopefully this is going on behind the scenes.

[BlackandwhiteBOB]

Maybe it needs someone to take the lead. Gather information and give it to the club. The club doesn't exactly have people going spare to do it themselves unfortunately.

[charlie]

Maybe it needs someone to take the lead. Gather information and give it to the club. The club doesn't exactly have people going spare to do it themselves unfortunately.

Agreed, we need to help ourselves and not wait to be asked, would save a lot of time and effort for those involved if the info could be collated and handed over x

[Bogratsteve]

Maybe it needs someone to take the lead. Gather information and give it to the club. The club doesn't exactly have people going spare to do it themselves unfortunately.

Agreed, we need to help ourselves and not wait to be asked, would save a lot of time and effort for those involved if the info could be collated and handed over x

Agreed but with this sort of thing until the club decides how to proceed we can't do to much as a main contractor will most likely be appointed and they will need to undertake certain obligations then they will be able to talk to the volunteers when a design and BOQ are produced for tender purposes etc

[BlackandwhiteBOB]

Maybe it needs someone to take the lead. Gather information and give it to the club. The club doesn't exactly have people going spare to do it themselves unfortunately.

Agreed, we need to help ourselves and not wait to be asked, would save a lot of time and effort for those involved if the info could be collated and handed over x

Agreed but with this sort of thing until the club decides how to proceed we can't do to much as a main contractor will most likely be appointed and they will need to undertake certain obligations then they will be able to talk to the volunteers when a design and BOQ are produced for tender purposes etc

Main contractor or not there will still be plenty to be done by fans, probably more than most think. The volunteer database should be made, then if the club does need it it's there.

[ted_do]

Once plans are sorted with council then a meet is probs needed if not before, happy to attend and see what I can put together.

Maybe a linkedin closed group or something for network exchange, the club have a presence on there

Just looking around Linkedin and there are not many people with Darlington FC in their profile blurb.
I`m not a full member (to tight to pay subscriptions) and not on that site very often but it is maybe a good place to get people with real skills and not Walter Mitty`s.

[lo36789]

I don't think many people will mention DFC in their linkedin. When it comes to the ground we are going to need skilled individuals. This is very different to say if the club needs a group of people to put the pitch covers on!

Could be something to be done. I'll try and speak to the CIC as they probs have the fingers in the most pies. If we could work up a list of roles/responsibilities that people can sign up to then that'll be a start.

Charlie is Dave's email the best one to go through? Could I get it again?

[Bogratsteve]

Agree on Linkedin profile, Charlie/Joanne and I are one of the few who promote Darlo on their but I'm sure there are a lot of professional construction bods who are Darlo fans or big footie guys.

It is one of the social media platforms that Darlo don't use well tbh and it can be a staggeringly good tool

[ted_do]

I don't think many people will mention DFC in their linkedin. When it comes to the ground we are going to need skilled individuals. This is very different to say if the club needs a group of people to put the pitch covers on!

Could be something to be done. I'll try and speak to the CIC as they probs have the fingers in the most pies. If we could work up a list of roles/responsibilities that people can sign up to then that'll be a start.

Charlie is Dave's email the best one to go through? Could I get it again?

If that works then great, but if we are short of cash and or short of the support of a principal contractor then I would rather spend what cash we do have on materials and not on a contractors site set up fees.

Take the fence for example if we could get Darlington timber to supply the materials, a local contractor to mark out the fence line and post holes, then the fans could dig out the footings mix up some postcrete and knock in a few nails in whilst the pros alternate between groups of fans giving guidance and advice
The thing we need is enough people to make the work enjoyable and not a chore as if we only have three or four volunteers they will soon get sick of digging holes where as 20 or 30 could blast through the work.

We will need pros for erecting the stands, but if cash is short even this could be delayed for a year or two leaving the seats uncovered, (not Ideal i know).

[charlie]

I don't think many people will mention DFC in their linkedin. When it comes to the ground we are going to need skilled individuals. This is very different to say if the club needs a group of people to put the pitch covers on!

Could be something to be done. I'll try and speak to the CIC as they probs have the fingers in the most pies. If we could work up a list of roles/responsibilities that people can sign up to then that'll be a start.

Charlie is Dave's email the best one to go through? Could I get it again?

dave@dfc1883.co.uk x

[lo36789]

Think you misunderstood me ted. I did mean that those skilled individuals could come from the fan base. At the same time it's worth getting those who are prepared to do well anything on top.

Can anyone answer what happened to the volunteer forms which were done ages ago? Were they just lost along the way?

They would be a good starting point!

[spen666]

....

We will need pros for erecting the stands, but if cash is short even this could be delayed for a year or two leaving the seats uncovered, (not Ideal i know).

I may be wrong, but I do not think uncovered seats can be counted towards the minimum ground grading requirements, so this would leave the club with a ground that will not reach the necessary standard for the NPL as it will have insufficient covered seating.

I think its 300 covered seats in NPL 1 and 500 in NPL 2

[footie fan]

....

We will need pros for erecting the stands, but if cash is short even this could be delayed for a year or two leaving the seats uncovered, (not Ideal i know).

I may be wrong, but I do not think uncovered seats can be counted towards the minimum ground grading requirements, so this would leave the club with a ground that will not reach the necessary standard for the NPL as it will have insufficient covered seating.

I think its 300 covered seats in NPL 1 and 500 in NPL 2

If your NPL 2 relates to evostick premier you are miles off the mark , Heritage Park has only 250 seats and is graded to play at least evostick premier

[Maurice_Peddelty]

....

We will need pros for erecting the stands, but if cash is short even this could be delayed for a year or two leaving the seats uncovered, (not Ideal i know).

I may be wrong, but I do not think uncovered seats can be counted towards the minimum ground grading requirements, so this would leave the club with a ground that will not reach the necessary standard for the NPL as it will have insufficient covered seating.

I think its 300 covered seats in NPL 1 and 500 in NPL 2

If your NPL 2 relates to evostick premier you are miles off the mark , Heritage Park has only 250 seats and is graded to play at least evostick premier

Correct, for NPL Premier, the requirement is covered accommodation for 500 of which 250 have to be seated.

[ted_do]

....

We will need pros for erecting the stands, but if cash is short even this could be delayed for a year or two leaving the seats uncovered, (not Ideal i know).

I may be wrong, but I do not think uncovered seats can be counted towards the minimum ground grading requirements, so this would leave the club with a ground that will not reach the necessary standard for the NPL as it will have insufficient covered seating.

I think its 300 covered seats in NPL 1 and 500 in NPL 2

If your NPL 2 relates to evostick premier you are miles off the mark , Heritage Park has only 250 seats and is graded to play at least evostick premier

Correct, for NPL Premier, the requirement is covered accommodation for 500 of which 250 have to be seated.

Yes obviously the ground will have to meet whatever the minimum requirements for the league we are in that season, and if we raise the money needed then that is great. Its just lets not set an unachievable target and sit there crying if we don't succeed.

I know its ironic coming from me, the biggest whinger of bus shelter and portakabin stadiums, but looking at some grounds in this league then Blackwell already looks to have more facilities than them and thats before we even start developing.
Blackwell has already has a pitch, floodlights, carpark & changing rooms (both small but will meet min requirements) & a clubhouse with bars, catering, toilets that are far in excess of min requirements.

This leaves covered seating of which there are already some, fences, turnstyles which could be garden sheds and hard standing around the pitch which could be 3x2 flag stones.

That gets us B2D and starts the profits from bar takings ect rolling in. I know the draw back will be ground capacity and I think there will be an upsurge for the first few games at least, so some sold out games will not be great for the fans. But we can then look at developing stands to increase capacity in the following years and the threat of sell outs will do wonders for season ticket sales.

[super_les_mcjannet]

I think you spell it out how it will be Ted and to be honest we have to do this as cheap as possible.

Some people will expect a better ground from the start but we have to remember we have no money for this and have to be very thankfull to the Rugby Club. Don't get me wrong the Rugby Club will benefit from us being there but they are being very helpfull in making this happen.

In terms of carpark the Rugby club have been planning an increase/upgrade for a while and I believe are looking to still complete this themselves.

The season ticket question v capacity is a good one, maybe it will make more buy a season ticket which is good but quite often those that buy were likely to be at most games anyhow.

Back to Darlo has jumped a little this week to £5,050 now but I think it needs a big boost. It's how to get that boost from fans who have generally put in to the club, we need to get to the 20k and then I think Business may be more interested to help.

More chance to get a business to say move the stand from Bishop to Darlo for free than you can say get 10k from them.

[Quakerz]

....

We will need pros for erecting the stands, but if cash is short even this could be delayed for a year or two leaving the seats uncovered, (not Ideal i know).

I may be wrong, but I do not think uncovered seats can be counted towards the minimum ground grading requirements, so this would leave the club with a ground that will not reach the necessary standard for the NPL as it will have insufficient covered seating.

I think its 300 covered seats in NPL 1 and 500 in NPL 2

Nope. It's 250 seats all the way up to the Conf North. However, the important thing is that the seats are classed as permanent, not temporary...

Other ground gradings increase between here and the Conf North though, amount of sides that look like they are for football, floodlight strength, turnstile numbers, amount of spectator cover, capacity, changing room size etc.

For the Evostik Premier, the grounds needs to hold 1,950 and we need 250 seats. For the Conference North, the ground needs to hold 3,000 and we need 250 seats.

Say we achieve the Evostik grading at Blackwell, the easiest and cheapest way of upgrading the capacity would be to extend the terrace that we will already have up, to terrace the other end, and then for further increases, terrace either side of the main stand.

[spen666]

....

We will need pros for erecting the stands, but if cash is short even this could be delayed for a year or two leaving the seats uncovered, (not Ideal i know).

I may be wrong, but I do not think uncovered seats can be counted towards the minimum ground grading requirements, so this would leave the club with a ground that will not reach the necessary standard for the NPL as it will have insufficient covered seating.

I think its 300 covered seats in NPL 1 and 500 in NPL 2

If your NPL 2 relates to evostick premier you are miles off the mark , Heritage Park has only 250 seats and is graded to play at least evostick premier

Sorry - perils of posting after a drink, I meant NPL Premier & NPL 1,

The number of seats of 250 and 150, (The 500 and 300 figures refer to total of covered accomodation, both seated and standing)


It doesn't defeat the point that the seating could not be left uncovered if it were to form part of the seating to reach the minimum ground grading requirement.

[Mr_Tibbs]

Maybe it needs someone to take the lead. Gather information and give it to the club. The club doesn't exactly have people going spare to do it themselves unfortunately.

Agreed, we need to help ourselves and not wait to be asked, would save a lot of time and effort for those involved if the info could be collated and handed over x

Spot on Bob & Sue, that's exactly how I see it. Things like this need to be handed over on a plate.

Think you misunderstood me ted. I did mean that those skilled individuals could come from the fan base. At the same time it's worth getting those who are prepared to do well anything on top.

Can anyone answer what happened to the volunteer forms which were done ages ago? Were they just lost along the way?

They would be a good starting point!

They got lost along the way. You can still follow a link to them from this post where Divas nailed what was required, but I don't think a forum is the way to go - a forum is good for discussion but not ideal for coordinating everything.

It so happens I've been working on a database and a SSACCUI® mail marketing system which, I think, would be ideal if adapted to allow people to register their skills. It would allow the coordinator (which is who? John Tempest seems to be the key figure behind the Back To Darlo! fund?) to send general updates to everyone, or requests for help to a specific group of people who match the skills/interests required.

I could set that up *today* on my own site and give access to whoever wants to be in charge of it, or it could be put on the BTD! site if whoever controls that can install the software and install the database. I don't think it really matters where it's hosted - the "sign up" form can still go on the Back To Darlo site.

Does anyone know if a workstream exists for "the move"? I'll write to John about this anyway, but it'd be good to know what people think of doing it this way.

* SSACCUI = "so-simple-a-child-could-use-it" - yes, I just made that up seeing as how everyone seems to be talking in acronyms now!