Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

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Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by Markodarlo » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:36 am

Hi all, you may recall I posted a thread on here a few weeks back offering people the chance to send questions to be put to the CIC board at a Q&A session the fans engagement workstream were offered by the board.

All the questions were put to the board and I have now got the answers to publish to you all, I have emailed the individuals who raised the questions but felt that the answers would benefit the wider fan base.

The more info we can get out to the fans the better in my view as the easier we can make this journey the more enjoyable it will be.

I think this session proves just how approachable the board members are.

If anyone would like answers to any future concerns they have, there are 2 options, you can either:

Email me madams26@hotmail.co.uk and I will raise the questions at our regular workstreams,

or

Email contact@darlingtonfc.org

I hope the following answers can put some people at ease.

...........................................................................................................

Fans Engagement Q&A

1 - CIC constitution: When will there be a constitution available for the CIC?

Articles of Association have existed since the CIC was formed, it is a legal requirement before any shareholding certificates can be granted and this is a matter of public record.

2 - Elections: When will there be elections for officers of the CIC and DFC?

As announced on Friday, elections will take place in the very near future following consultation with Supporters Direct and the Supporters Trust. This will create the opportunity for an elected representative from the CIC members to represent the fans on the Darlington 1883 board.

3 - Crowd projections: Mr. Jesper mentioned at the recent forum that a break even crowd figure for the season is 1,450, and that is before repaying debts. What actions will be taken if the crowds do not reach this figure?

Martin Jesper is constantly adjusting his projections based on actual revisions to expected revenues and expenditure – based on actual football and commercial activities that materialise. Monthly board meetings take place where this information is discussed with the CIC representatives (in their capacity of corporate director of Darlington 1883). The directors of the CIC are more than comfortable that Martin Jesper is being extremely professional in insisting on running an extremely tight ship in respect of financial management, planning and commercial activities. As a fan owned club, the biggest way in which the fans can support the financial position of the football club is through attending the matches in numbers, supporting the commercial activities that are announced and continuing with successful fundraising initiatives themselves.

4 - Debt: What are the total debts of DFC? To whom is the money owed? What are the repayment schedules for the debts? What other special conditions have any lenders insisted on?

All limited companies are legally bound in respect of what can and cannot be disclosed regarding information that affects third parties and their financial position or status, particularly when commercial agreements bind the entities in their respective responsibilities regarding disclosure – this also applies to general trading activities with suppliers. Whilst certain fans clearly feel they should be entitled to know exactly who is owed money, and how much, we must respect and remember that putting such information in the public domain will potentially damage longer term relationship with those parties (suppliers, providers of funds etc) and the terms on which they have been negotiated in strictest confidence that cannot be disclosed further. We also have to understand that disclosure of some information, for example regarding HMRC position, may also raise unnecessary panic within the fan base, football regulation authorities and the press – despite those matters and relationships being tightly managed and being fully controlled. The quantum of debt at the end of June 2013 will be presented at the forthcoming AGM and the reasons for that existing will, we are sure, be more than adequately explained by Mr Jesper and will build on the comments he publicly stared at the Fans Forum in March.

5 - What is the proposed schedule for the CIC moving towards elections of officers? A firm commitment and a clear statement would be very encouraging in terms of actually achieving a “fan-controlled club"

As 2 above. We must learn to understand that there is a difference between ‘fan owned’ and ‘fan controlled’. A good example is AFC Wimbledon where they are fan owned, the board are made up of responsible business people, who are experts in their field and some fans Trust representatives. A bad example would be Ebbsfleet where they were fan controlled, right up to the point where fans could vote on who would be on the bench on a match-day. The Ebbsfleet model was always highly risky, as has been seen during the summer, where the structure collapsed and they had to get a benefactor to bail them out. DFC is very similar to the AFC Wimbledon model.

6 - Are there/would there be any guideline criteria for election candidates? E.g. business/ finance/ other professional skills; good CV; track record of involvement with the club, etc?

We believe that our forthcoming discussions with Supporters Direct will help clarify exactly what skills are required to add value as a representative of the fans on the board of Darlington 1883. Every request for a position, either for volunteer resource or a member elected position on the board of the football club, will require a suitable mix of experience and competency – along with time availability and demonstrating commitment to the role for a period of time. These roles need individuals whose intentions are to make a difference to the football club and the community – simply being involved to find out more about detail within the club and without delivering genuine results is something that cannot be afforded.

7 - How have people been "selected" for the CIC positions thus far? On what basis?

Every limited company that is formed requires founding directors. The CIC fully came to life as a majority shareholder in March 2013 when shares were allotted at a time that Darlington 1883 had serious financial challenges. Following Dave Mills resignation, the CIC now has 3 directors – however each has specific skills that have been delivered in extremely difficult circumstances. Friday’s announcement reinforces the position that the founding directors have established sufficient foundations to welcome member elected directors and a position on the board of Darlington 1883 – this was always the intention, but could not be done before the foundations were put in place and the CIC had been heavily involved in supporting Mr Jesper in stabilising the position of Darlington 1883.

8 - If, as a ballpark figure, 1,000 season ticket sales yielded £20,000 to the CIC, how is this money then to be spent?

As announced on Saturday, 100% of the £20 per season ticket CIC membership fee is being invested directly in the football club as additional equity, thereby making an immediate impact on the cash the club has available.

9 - What are the operating costs of the CIC and under what categories do these operating costs fall?

Operating costs are currently minimal and the organisation is run by volunteers. The CIC has its own set of accounts and these will be published to members at its own AGM in due course.

10. Why is CIC membership included in the ST price? This removes £20k from the club (if we get 1k sales) I do understand much of this would come back to the club. I'm interested to know the reasoning for this, as it feels inappropriate.

As mentioned above, the injection of cash from the CIC to the football club increases our shareholding under conditions allowed by the football club’s Articles of Association – which also limits the shareholding of any other individual, or body, to 15% - this protects, for the long term, the club as being owned by and controlled by the fans, for the fans – maintaining a majority (i.e. 51% controlling interest) under the Articles. As our shareholding increases, this allows us to gradually become the ‘de facto’ voice of the fans and more fully representative of all fans. Already we represent the voice of around 800 members (more than 60% of the average attendance last season!) and that united voice will be the where the strength of fan ownership lies in the future.

11 - If CIC membership is included in the cost of the ST, then it seems only fair that the Trust and Supporters Club gain the same benefit.

Whether individual members of the CIC choose to use their vote is up to them – however it is hoped that other shareholder groups recognise the value in collective decision making representing all fans as being in the best interest of all fans and therefore there is no threat, or competition from being part of the CIC, in fact it allows your voice to be heard, alongside other like minded fans, in a truly democratic manner – and the vehicle to do this as a fan owed club lies within the CIC structure, which a structure that the FA has fully accepted as achievable and also now appears to be a model that other clubs experiencing challenge or change are reverting to.

12 - Is it possible to decline membership of the CIC and still get a season ticket, by any of the following methods?

A) Reducing the cost of an adult ST by £20
No its one price.

B) By still paying the face value. If this is done, will all £175 go to the club?
Refer to previous answers.

13 - Can there not be a single point of contact for information on the club?

There is; the email address is contact@darlingtonfc.org

14 - There seems to be no mention these days of when the club is moving back to Darlington. We were promised that they would come back after a year but it hasn't happened. I haven't renewed my season ticket because of this and would like to know if there is a new date?

As Martin Jesper pointed out at the last Fan Forum, this is an absolutely essential work stream to deliver on as the opportunities to maximise commercial revenues are limited whilst being a tenant in Bishop Auckland. This work stream is ongoing, and a priority, however, for reasons outlined in recent releases, it is not something that can be discussed openly in the public domain at present. Full details will be announced as soon as the time is right. Discussions continue with the Council, advisors and land owners about getting the right place back in the town. It is not ethical to go onto websites and publish the thoughts and discussions of these meetings equally we do not want to make statements that we cannot keep. The plan is to be back in the town playing football in the very near future, now if the wheels of motion fall into place there is an outside chance that we could achieve that in 2014 but it may be more realistic to look to the 2015/16 season due to factors that lie outside our immediate control.

15 - What if any advantage is there in my being a founder?

The advantage is that you know you were a founder member of the group that took over the ownership of Darlington FC in their hour of need. Once we get our new ground there is a plan that could we possibly put up a plaque at the new ground with all the names of the founder member on it this will be a piece of history that will last for as long as the football club is around. We will honour the Founder members properly in time, but for now the certificate is your bit of the football club that say this is my football club - not something that belongs to mercenary or as a deep pocketed benefactor’s play thing - but my football club, as a fan.

16 - Will the “new members” i.e. those becoming so by purchasing season tickets have the same advantages?

The New memberships for this coming season will be announce shortly now that the Membership Secretary is imminent we will be contacting all members to renew for the 2013/14 season at a cost of £20, unless a season ticket has already been bought, in return for a collectable membership card and other potential offers throughout the season to be decided.

17 - When will the AGM be?

The exact date for the AGM for Darlington 1883 Limited should be announced in the next couple of weeks, and it is currently intended for late September.

The AGM for Darlington Football Club CIC will be announced once full consultation has been held with Supporters Direct and we have a definitive timescale for facilitating elections and polling members.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by A kick in the Jacobs » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:23 am

Thanks for putting this up, markodarlo.

There are a lot of words in those responses and a lot of repetition but without actually saying anything.

Their comments on the £20 are completely as expected. In otherwords, the CIC has abused its position.

I can see why some people's thoughts on the CIC's representatives are negative.

It's disappointing that a lot of the CIC's supporters are just being sheep about this. Being a volunteer is not an excuse for doing things wrong and especially for abusing their position.

You'll get the club you deserve.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by MattClarkesLeftPeg » Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:53 am

AKITJ do us all a favour and f*** off

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by lo36789 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:58 am

Hope you feel confident to back that up?

It was Dave Mills who sat on the board as the representative of the CIC right? So you are now outright saying he abused his position. That's quite a statement to make - cant imagine he will be too happy about it.

Is it not normal course of business that a commercial team would choose a season ticket promotion? This will have then (because its a small club) need to be signed off by directors. Ultimately Martin Jesper will have the say as the CEO if he doesn't like the sound of it.

See the CIC could not initiate the promotion, he CIC cannot have ultimate choice to sign off the promotion. How can the CIC have abused it's position?

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by shawry » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:29 am

lo36789 wrote:Hope you feel confident to back that up?

It was Dave Mills who sat on the board as the representative of the CIC right? So you are now outright saying he abused his position. That's quite a statement to make - cant imagine he will be too happy about it.

Is it not normal course of business that a commercial team would choose a season ticket promotion? This will have then (because its a small club) need to be signed off by directors. Ultimately Martin Jesper will have the say as the CEO if he doesn't like the sound of it.

See the CIC could not initiate the promotion, he CIC cannot have ultimate choice to sign off the promotion. How can the CIC have abused it's position?
This isnt a promotion, the cost of the cic membership is the same as it will cost anyone else to buy.

Also when I asked the club why cic membership was included the back end of june I was told to ask the cic.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by A kick in the Jacobs » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:36 am

lo36789 wrote:Hope you feel confident to back that up?

It was Dave Mills who sat on the board as the representative of the CIC right? So you are now outright saying he abused his position. That's quite a statement to make - cant imagine he will be too happy about it.

Is it not normal course of business that a commercial team would choose a season ticket promotion? This will have then (because its a small club) need to be signed off by directors. Ultimately Martin Jesper will have the say as the CEO if he doesn't like the sound of it.

See the CIC could not initiate the promotion, he CIC cannot have ultimate choice to sign off the promotion. How can the CIC have abused it's position?
Whoever it was (and it was likely to be two people) who got the club to deviously obtain funds for the CIC, those are the people I suspect have abused their position(s). Just because one person signs it off doesn't mean it's solely down to that one person.

Membership of the CIC being a season ticket promotion? What tosh! As if that would have made anyone buy a season ticket, especially bearing in mind it wasn't said that any of the season ticket money was going to the CIC.

Look at their response to the question as to why such devious collection of funds wasn't undertaken for the Trust and Supporters group. Guilty as charged, to anyone with any nouse.

As I said, you'll get the club you deserve.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by Mrs_Money_Penny » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:51 am

The club we deserve consulating with The Trust,SC & SD and a plan to return to Darlington-sounds good to me.

charlie

Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by charlie » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:52 am

To me as well

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by lo36789 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:02 am

shawry wrote:This isnt a promotion, the cost of the cic membership is the same as it will cost anyone else to buy.

Also when I asked the club why cic membership was included the back end of june I was told to ask the cic.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2
The membership was part of the price paid for your season ticket. It's irrelevant how much goes to the CIC in the end.

I pay for my phone contract with O2 that gets me a bunch of free stuff. Can I get that contract without the free stuff? No. Does the small print say that they are paying £x amount to those running the promotion? No.

O2 feel that it will boost sales if they have the extra incentive. So they put it in as part of the contract.

The club may feel that either its a good incentive, season ticket holders will want to be CIC members or it might entice CIC members instead of just paying their £20 they can get a free membership if they get a season ticket. They were going to buy a membership anyway so it is basically a £20 discount.

Or maybe, just maybe the club felt it would benefit from having more fans as members of its controlling shareholder. You know in the sense of fairness, a club for the community, a club for the fans.

If you compare season ticket prices to those last season, if you add in the extra £1 on the gate fee I think you will find pricing is in line with that. Except this year you also get a CIC membership as a free add on. Again the contribution made to that party is irrelevant as it I irrelevant in any other promotion.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by robsraiders » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:04 am

AKJ what is your problem, this quote you keep using "You'll get the club you deserve" seems born out of a man who is not a real fan who is trying his best to undermine the actions and commitments of well meaning and I know because I have met most of them genuine fans trying to push this new venture forward.
Yes we will get the club we deserve and I am confident of exactly that, we will succeed but it will take time, you have obviously made it pretty clear you think otherwise, well thanks we do not need people like you, not only are you prepared to criticise these people without any positive suggestions from yourself, but from my position it appears very clear you want the whole thing to fail.
I know that you will not refrain from these attacks, and you are entitled to your opinion but please start up your own forum where you can perhaps call it "Darlington FC will fail you heard it hear" it will be a sure fire hit with your 5 followers.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by A kick in the Jacobs » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:27 am

lo36789 wrote:
shawry wrote:This isnt a promotion, the cost of the cic membership is the same as it will cost anyone else to buy.

Also when I asked the club why cic membership was included the back end of june I was told to ask the cic.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2
The membership was part of the price paid for your season ticket. It's irrelevant how much goes to the CIC in the end.

I pay for my phone contract with O2 that gets me a bunch of free stuff. Can I get that contract without the free stuff? No. Does the small print say that they are paying £x amount to those running the promotion? No.

O2 feel that it will boost sales if they have the extra incentive. So they put it in as part of the contract.

The club may feel that either its a good incentive, season ticket holders will want to be CIC members or it might entice CIC members instead of just paying their £20 they can get a free membership if they get a season ticket. They were going to buy a membership anyway so it is basically a £20 discount.

Or maybe, just maybe the club felt it would benefit from having more fans as members of its controlling shareholder. You know in the sense of fairness, a club for the community, a club for the fans.

If you compare season ticket prices to those last season, if you add in the extra £1 on the gate fee I think you will find pricing is in line with that. Except this year you also get a CIC membership as a free add on. Again the contribution made to that party is irrelevant as it I irrelevant in any other promotion.
Everytime you post, mankind regresses.

How many times do you have to repeat this stuff and avoid the issues that I have highlighted. Your comparison to O2 is ridiculous.

Once again, the issues are:

a) the detrimental treatment of minority shareholders; and

b) the underhand way of collecting funds for the CIC

There has been nothing said by the CIC/club or the CIC's (biased) supporters that justifies what's happened.

Whatever the goals are of the CIC/club, they have not followed proper procedure and/or have undertaken unethical/illegal practices. The acceptance of these action by CIC supporters is disappointing. It suggests to me that you're not bothered what inappropriate actions occur as long you get what you want. You'd rather try and shush people with genuine concerns then do what's right.

The club will reflect the fans and, based on PMs I have received, that's concerning people.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by shawry » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:29 am

lo36789 wrote:
shawry wrote:This isnt a promotion, the cost of the cic membership is the same as it will cost anyone else to buy.

Also when I asked the club why cic membership was included the back end of june I was told to ask the cic.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2
The membership was part of the price paid for your season ticket. It's irrelevant how much goes to the CIC in the end.

I pay for my phone contract with O2 that gets me a bunch of free stuff. Can I get that contract without the free stuff? No. Does the small print say that they are paying £x amount to those running the promotion? No.

O2 feel that it will boost sales if they have the extra incentive. So they put it in as part of the contract.

The club may feel that either its a good incentive, season ticket holders will want to be CIC members or it might entice CIC members instead of just paying their £20 they can get a free membership if they get a season ticket. They were going to buy a membership anyway so it is basically a £20 discount.

Or maybe, just maybe the club felt it would benefit from having more fans as members of its controlling shareholder. You know in the sense of fairness, a club for the community, a club for the fans.

If you compare season ticket prices to those last season, if you add in the extra £1 on the gate fee I think you will find pricing is in line with that. Except this year you also get a CIC membership as a free add on. Again the contribution made to that party is irrelevant as it I irrelevant in any other promotion.
Its not a free add on, you pay £20 for it.

And Ive already stated, the club would benefit more from not including the CIC, retaining all the £175 and then let CIC members renew through normal methods, then the club can get the extra income from that in exchange for increased share holding.

The club should not be increasing the shareholding of an investor in this manner, it doesnt matter whether everyone wants them to have the 75% stake they are striving for or not.

Previously Ive not spoken to a single CIC member who was not going to renew (including myself), but Ive spoken to several season ticket holders who now wont get one.

Just because the CIC is fan owned doesnt make it right to do it, if the CIC was a private investor, everyone would be up in arms about them increasing their stake in the club that way, so we shouldnt make exceptions because its a fan owned body,

I'll leave it at that, as clearly my views are contrary to everyone elses.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by A kick in the Jacobs » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:35 am

robsraiders wrote:AKJ what is your problem, this quote you keep using "You'll get the club you deserve" seems born out of a man who is not a real fan who is trying his best to undermine the actions and commitments of well meaning and I know because I have met most of them genuine fans trying to push this new venture forward.
Yes we will get the club we deserve and I am confident of exactly that, we will succeed but it will take time, you have obviously made it pretty clear you think otherwise, well thanks we do not need people like you, not only are you prepared to criticise these people without any positive suggestions from yourself, but from my position it appears very clear you want the whole thing to fail.
I know that you will not refrain from these attacks, and you are entitled to your opinion but please start up your own forum where you can perhaps call it "Darlington FC will fail you heard it hear" it will be a sure fire hit with your 5 followers.
You're another person that's missed the point.

Before this issue, I wouldn't have been known as a critic of the CIC/club. There again, I hadn't paid much interest to the goings-on behind the scenes.

It's a desire for the club to do things like this properly that has got me interested.

If people feel that what has happened is OK, they have a skewed impression of what is right and wrong.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by Markodarlo » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:35 am

AKITJ, when you sent your communication to the CIC / Football club board, did you request a full explanation to your questions and if so maybe you could publish them on the forum so everyone can use that information to understand the plans going forward?

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by A kick in the Jacobs » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:39 am

shawry wrote:I'll leave it at that, as clearly my views are contrary to everyone elses.
No they're not, shawry, no they're not.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by A kick in the Jacobs » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:40 am

Markodarlo wrote:AKITJ, when you sent your communication to the CIC / Football club board, did you request a full explanation to your questions and if so maybe you could publish them on the forum so everyone can use that information to understand the plans going forward?
And the point of this post is?

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by Markodarlo » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:45 am

A kick in the Jacobs wrote:
robsraiders wrote:AKJ what is your problem, this quote you keep using "You'll get the club you deserve" seems born out of a man who is not a real fan who is trying his best to undermine the actions and commitments of well meaning and I know because I have met most of them genuine fans trying to push this new venture forward.
Yes we will get the club we deserve and I am confident of exactly that, we will succeed but it will take time, you have obviously made it pretty clear you think otherwise, well thanks we do not need people like you, not only are you prepared to criticise these people without any positive suggestions from yourself, but from my position it appears very clear you want the whole thing to fail.
I know that you will not refrain from these attacks, and you are entitled to your opinion but please start up your own forum where you can perhaps call it "Darlington FC will fail you heard it hear" it will be a sure fire hit with your 5 followers.
You're another person that's missed the point.

Before this issue, I wouldn't have been known as a critic of the CIC/club. There again, I hadn't paid much interest to the goings-on behind the scenes.

It's a desire for the club to do things like this properly that has got me interested.

If people feel that what has happened is OK, they have a skewed impression of what is right and wrong.
I'm sure not everyone is happy about every decision that will be made, no matter what organisation you ate your never going to please everyone.
However, I sure if others were not happy they would perhaps mention it, raise there concern with the people in question and either understand it or disagree with it. What does concern me is the people who want to come on the message board and because they don't agree with a decision, hijack as many threads as possible and just continue to make an issue of it.

As for people PM'ing you, what's the chances them people have also emailed the club?

I'm not sure if your local but why not attend the next fans engagement work stream and raise you issues and communicate your findings the others that have pm'd you?
If your interested in this offer then please let me know and I will inform you of the next meet up.

Cheers,

Mark

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by lo36789 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:45 am

shawry wrote:Its not a free add on, you pay £20 for it.

And Ive already stated, the club would benefit more from not including the CIC, retaining all the £175 and then let CIC members renew through normal methods, then the club can get the extra income from that in exchange for increased share holding.
When they announced the season ticket prices initially there were calculations done and it was worked out that it was pretty much the same as last year but consider that £9 is the on the gate fee.

If that is the case then the CIC membership is free to the buyer, it is included within the price. What the club do in order to recompense the CIC is their responsibility.

Seeing as though they raised £13,000 through this, consider that VAT is 20% and there is no VAT on a CIC membership the club has actually become better off to the tune of £2,600. It will have been a business decision weighing up the % of ST holders with CIC memberships and % of CIC members without ST's. Taking into account assumed attrition of memebership if it were done seperately.

The club should (i think) be able to include within their figures that of the ticket fee £20 was tax exempt. The fact remains that the ticket prices as they were including the CIC membership were in line with the ones charged last season, therein the memership was free to those who bought it.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by Markodarlo » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:47 am

A kick in the Jacobs wrote:
Markodarlo wrote:AKITJ, when you sent your communication to the CIC / Football club board, did you request a full explanation to your questions and if so maybe you could publish them on the forum so everyone can use that information to understand the plans going forward?
And the point of this post is?
To see if there is a chance of some answers to your concerns being published to the other readers?

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by A kick in the Jacobs » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:54 am

Markodarlo wrote:
A kick in the Jacobs wrote:
Markodarlo wrote:AKITJ, when you sent your communication to the CIC / Football club board, did you request a full explanation to your questions and if so maybe you could publish them on the forum so everyone can use that information to understand the plans going forward?
And the point of this post is?
To see if there is a chance of some answers to your concerns being published to the other readers?
a) you know I haven't contacted the CIC/club, and

b) I have already seen the CIC's/club's responses to the issues raised within your initial post of this thread and an extract from an e-mail to Robbie Painter

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by mikkyx » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:57 am

A kick in the Jacobs wrote:a) you know I haven't contacted the CIC/club
Well - in the nicest way possible - either do it, or shut up. This is going round in circles, helping nobody, and you aren't going to get answers to your accusations on here.
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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by A kick in the Jacobs » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:02 am

mikkyx wrote:
A kick in the Jacobs wrote:a) you know I haven't contacted the CIC/club
Well - in the nicest way possible - either do it, or shut up. This is going round in circles, helping nobody, and you aren't going to get answers to your accusations on here.
Indeed, on here you mostly find people who are not bothered about suggestions of impropriety from the CIC/club.

It's a fans' club, alright.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by A kick in the Jacobs » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:19 am

Markodarlo wrote:
A kick in the Jacobs wrote:
robsraiders wrote:AKJ what is your problem, this quote you keep using "You'll get the club you deserve" seems born out of a man who is not a real fan who is trying his best to undermine the actions and commitments of well meaning and I know because I have met most of them genuine fans trying to push this new venture forward.
Yes we will get the club we deserve and I am confident of exactly that, we will succeed but it will take time, you have obviously made it pretty clear you think otherwise, well thanks we do not need people like you, not only are you prepared to criticise these people without any positive suggestions from yourself, but from my position it appears very clear you want the whole thing to fail.
I know that you will not refrain from these attacks, and you are entitled to your opinion but please start up your own forum where you can perhaps call it "Darlington FC will fail you heard it hear" it will be a sure fire hit with your 5 followers.
You're another person that's missed the point.

Before this issue, I wouldn't have been known as a critic of the CIC/club. There again, I hadn't paid much interest to the goings-on behind the scenes.

It's a desire for the club to do things like this properly that has got me interested.

If people feel that what has happened is OK, they have a skewed impression of what is right and wrong.
I'm sure not everyone is happy about every decision that will be made, no matter what organisation you ate your never going to please everyone.
However, I sure if others were not happy they would perhaps mention it, raise there concern with the people in question and either understand it or disagree with it. What does concern me is the people who want to come on the message board and because they don't agree with a decision, hijack as many threads as possible and just continue to make an issue of it.

As for people PM'ing you, what's the chances them people have also emailed the club?

I'm not sure if your local but why not attend the next fans engagement work stream and raise you issues and communicate your findings the others that have pm'd you?
If your interested in this offer then please let me know and I will inform you of the next meet up.

Cheers,

Mark
This isn't about disagreeing with the choice of items in the club shop. This is way more serious than that, hence my disappointment at people's willingness to accept the CIC's/club's lightweight response to the concerns.

I live in London and spend a lot of the year overseas. Whilst I am not averse to the thought of contributing time and effort to the cause, it would be highly impractical. I've been on Boards/Committees for other things and it just didn't work because of my personal circumstances. However, that doesn't make my views/concerns on matters any less valid.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by al_quaker » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:22 am

A kick in the Jacobs wrote: This isn't about disagreeing with the choice of items in the club shop. This is way more serious than that, hence my disappointment at people's willingness to accept the CIC's/club's lightweight response to the concerns.
Well why don't you contact them and push for a more detailed response?

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by mikkyx » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:31 am

A kick in the Jacobs wrote:
mikkyx wrote:
A kick in the Jacobs wrote:a) you know I haven't contacted the CIC/club
Well - in the nicest way possible - either do it, or shut up. This is going round in circles, helping nobody, and you aren't going to get answers to your accusations on here.
Indeed, on here you mostly find people who are not bothered about suggestions of impropriety from the CIC/club.

It's a fans' club, alright.
I'm sure we'd all like the answers too. That's why we're waiting on the person who raised these concerns to contact the CIC and get them.
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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by A kick in the Jacobs » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:49 am

al_quaker wrote:
A kick in the Jacobs wrote: This isn't about disagreeing with the choice of items in the club shop. This is way more serious than that, hence my disappointment at people's willingness to accept the CIC's/club's lightweight response to the concerns.
Well why don't you contact them and push for a more detailed response?
Why me? They are people with far more of an interest in the club than me.

Why not you? You're a member of the CIC, aren't you? It's surely more for you to investigate what wrongdoings people who are working for you maybe doing. Or do you believe such allegations are not serious enough to warrant further investigation?

If someone told you they knew of someone committing child abuse to your children would you just say "Well, they're making the accusation, let them deal with it"?

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by lo36789 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:59 am

A kick in the Jacobs wrote:If someone told you they knew of someone committing child abuse to your children would you just say "Well, they're making the accusation, let them deal with it"?
I wouldn't take their word for it and alert the police because "someone told me" especially if that person was particularly adament that they wouldn't tell the police.

I'd be extremely suspicious as to why not and would imagine it's because they either have no confidence in what they are saying, or because they don't want to be known by the police as having made the allegations.

So probably a very good analogy. Well done AKITJ.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by al_quaker » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:04 am

A kick in the Jacobs wrote:
al_quaker wrote:
A kick in the Jacobs wrote: This isn't about disagreeing with the choice of items in the club shop. This is way more serious than that, hence my disappointment at people's willingness to accept the CIC's/club's lightweight response to the concerns.
Well why don't you contact them and push for a more detailed response?
Why me? They are people with far more of an interest in the club than me.

Why not you? You're a member of the CIC, aren't you? It's surely more for you to investigate what wrongdoings people who are working for you maybe doing. Or do you believe such allegations are not serious enough to warrant further investigation?

If someone told you they knew of someone committing child abuse to your children would you just say "Well, they're making the accusation, let them deal with it"?
There may well be people with far more of an interest in the club than you, but you are the one posting about this issue the most. You obviously care about this issue a lot, yet refuse to act upon it by sending off an email. That attitude, rightly or wrongly, makes it look more like you are just wanting a moan rather than you actually want to help the club right any potential wrongdoings.

Why not me? I don't know anything about company law. You could be speaking total sense, you could be speaking absolute nonsense. Why would I start asking questions about something I know nothing about? You obviously know more about this issue than me. The amount of time you have spent posting about the issue on here, you could have composed an email asking the questions you want answered! And you would have a much better chance of getting the answers you want by emailing the club than posting on here!

Re the slightly ridiculous comparison with child abuse, I know 100% that child abuse is illegal. I would also expect the person who witnessed the child abuse (or thought that they had witnessed child abuse) to have got in contact with the relevant authority...

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by Spyman » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:05 am

I have no problem with the CIC, the individuals on it, or its aims and intentions. I'm a member, and I think it seems the best way for the club to progress.

But, AKITJ is making a valid point. This Q&A seems to me a lot of political speak with very few plain answers. AKITJ has raised a genuine concern, which makes perfect sense to me - how is it appropriate to take funds that have been paid in ernest to DFC1883, and reroute part of those funds to the CIC so that it can increase its stake in the club?

Again, I have no problem with the CIC increasing its stake in the club, but why does it get to call shotgun on these funds which are not optional if as a paying fan, you want to make a saving on ticket prices?

All a few of us want, is a clear answer as to why that is an appropriate course of action, and whether it is a legal course of action. If it is, great.

As an example, question 7:
7 - How have people been "selected" for the CIC positions thus far? On what basis?

Every limited company that is formed requires founding directors. The CIC fully came to life as a majority shareholder in March 2013 when shares were allotted at a time that Darlington 1883 had serious financial challenges. Following Dave Mills resignation, the CIC now has 3 directors – however each has specific skills that have been delivered in extremely difficult circumstances. Friday’s announcement reinforces the position that the founding directors have established sufficient foundations to welcome member elected directors and a position on the board of Darlington 1883 – this was always the intention, but could not be done before the foundations were put in place and the CIC had been heavily involved in supporting Mr Jesper in stabilising the position of Darlington 1883.


This in no way tells us the answer to the question, which I'd have thought was a fair and straightforward one.
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

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Re: Fans Engagement Workstream, CIC Board Q&A

Post by Mrs_Money_Penny » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:16 am

It's obvious the answer is not going to come via this messageboard so those that want the answer send an e-mail and the rest can discuss other issue from the workstream.

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