Fans Forum 12th June

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wizardofos
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Fans Forum 12th June

Post by wizardofos » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:04 am

In case anyone missed it, here's an important extract from the CEO's speech:

"In the latest, ever-changing version of our financial plans for next season, our football activity represents approximately 70% of total revenues and our current business model requires an average attendance in excess of 1,450 per match (actual 1,319 last season) to break even next year, before meeting existing debt repayments."

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by MikeinBlack2 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:47 am

A big factor in this must, even before a ball is kicked in anger, be season ticket sales, surely? The prices are higher than last season so we should be bringing in extra revenue from equal sales as last time. Does anyone know how sales are going? If we require an extra 130 or so spectators per game and assuming the figures are based on full adult tickets that is around £1150 a game extra to break even, or around £24,000 extra revenue needed to be all square over the season.

What is he actually saying? That for this business model to succeed they are budgeting on an increase in paying support of about 10% over last season? Is this realistic? Or is he, in a roundabout sort of way, asking fundraising (i.e. Uncovered fund) to raise £24,000 to keep us afloat?

Or have I read this wrong? If I have, would someone be able (preferably without insulting 'flap' remarks please) to explain in simple terms what he is actually implying? Thanks.
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Quakerz » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:56 am

Flap-tastic over analysis there Mike.

To simplify - The CEO is saying we need 1,500 a match (this will obviously include STs that you are blithering on about), BEFORE existing debt payments. It's that simple.

In other words, we're fucked.
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Trike1 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:33 am

see this is what i dont understand
it says without meeting debt repayments

no other club has 1450 fans everyhome match yet they manage

if someone can explain it id appreciate it

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by MikeinBlack2 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:38 am

Quakerz wrote:Flap-tastic over analysis there Mike.

To simplify - The CEO is saying we need 1,500 a match (this will obviously include STs that you are blithering on about), BEFORE existing debt payments. It's that simple.

In other words, we're fucked.
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by tezza » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:30 am

2 Interesting points in the statement
"Before meeting existing debt repayments" which in themselves are considerable, and would require a substantial increase in attendances. If you throw them into the pot, without doing the math, the required attendance, to stand still could be substantially higher than 1450

" 70% of total revenues " football related ie. attendances being the main element.

The focus really needs to turn to the generation of increased commercial revenue streams. In real terms most clubs run on an approximate 70/30 split... The 70 representing non direct footballing income.

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Robbie Painter
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Robbie Painter » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:34 am

Very worrying if that is the case.

I didn't hear MJ say what wizardofos has quoted at the meeting, so either I missed it or it was said post meeting?

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Mr_Tibbs » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:48 am

Robbie Painter wrote:Very worrying if that is the case.

I didn't hear MJ say what wizardofos has quoted at the meeting, so either I missed it or it was said post meeting?
His full speech was printed on the website Robbie...

http://www.darlington1883.co.uk/?p=4440#more-4440

Whilst (according to this transcript) he said it, he also said it in the context of how this made the board realise that a return to the town is something which needs to be pushed right up the agenda in order to keep growing (and not hitting our heads on the ceiling).
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Robbie Painter » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:24 am

Mr_Tibbs wrote:
Robbie Painter wrote:Very worrying if that is the case.

I didn't hear MJ say what wizardofos has quoted at the meeting, so either I missed it or it was said post meeting?
His full speech was printed on the website Robbie...

http://www.darlington1883.co.uk/?p=4440#more-4440

Whilst (according to this transcript) he said it, he also said it in the context of how this made the board realise that a return to the town is something which needs to be pushed right up the agenda in order to keep growing (and not hitting our heads on the ceiling).
Wow, in that case I agree with Quakerz. What how earth are we spending all our revenue on??
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Hilly
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Hilly » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:26 am

"Before meeting existing debt repayments" which in themselves are considerable, and would require a substantial increase in attendances. If you throw them into the pot, without doing the math, the required attendance, to stand still could be substantially higher than 1450"

Taking away the inherited debt, just what in the hell is costing that much that we aren't managing to cover costs when we have a considerably higher attendance than any other non league team?

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by notgnilrad » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:44 am

This makes no sense at alll we have raised the ticket prices way above teams in this division we have a way higher average and we need 1,400 just to break even something is not right there and what should be explained is what are the overheads and why are they costing so much, other teams on 200 attendences are flipping fine lots of questions need answering.

PS Plus all the fundraising everyone is doing this seems like a mess and personally i dont trust this board what is going on?????? ANSWERS NOW PLEASE.

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:52 am

It is frustrating when statements are made like that. Was this mentioned at the fans forum - if so why did nobody pull it up then?

We are not going to get 1,450 fans. We are going to get an average of 1,300 next season.

I can't believe nobody has learnt from the RS saga. Threatening an average attendance does not work as a tool for encouraging people to join the ship.

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Trike1 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:13 pm

so this is what i have come up with

1450 x 10.00 = 14,500 x 21 = £304,500

44 x 100 x 20 player is 88k

20k for rental of hp

so thats 108k without travel

the above figures dont include sponsorship or any other revenue streams
im at a loss

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:20 pm

Trike1 wrote:so this is what i have come up with

1450 x 10.00 = 14,500 x 21 = £304,500

44 x 100 x 20 player is 88k

20k for rental of hp

so thats 108k without travel

the above figures dont include sponsorship or any other revenue streams
im at a loss
Well for a start.

700 is STs which are about £6.50 per match that is for adults if you consider that 50% are probably concession fares then you are probably averaging £5 per match for STs.

The rest of the attendance will also be a 50% split full paying adults and concessions (children/students/armed forces/OAPs).

Also I'd expect the players salary to be closer to £150 per week average than
£100.

Colin Galloway is a FT employee of the club. Build in a salary for him.

We have 4 members of coaching staff, build in their salaries.

Referee's expenses will be £150-200 per match next season...might as well chuck them in.

HP costs £25k per annum.

Do your maths again.

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Hilly » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:23 pm

Forgive me because I'm not fully up to speed with the whole CIC thing, but is there a plan to release a snapshot of the clubs accounts? e.g. at the AGM?

Obviously we don't need to know the breakdown of each individual item, but a brief overview of the incomings / outgoings of the club should help the fans understand just, to use a phrase that we've unfortunately heard so often, "where the money has gone".

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Ingleby » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:24 pm

Credit to the Fundraising Team but it seems we are all pissing in the wind.

We were told Commercial Rev was going exceptionally well etc, can't see it with what's being said.

Something isn't right.
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:25 pm

Hilly wrote:Forgive me because I'm not fully up to speed with the whole CIC thing, but is there a plan to release a snapshot of the clubs accounts? e.g. at the AGM?
As far as I am aware. Shareholders in a company are entitled to the abbreviated accounts which are submitted to Companies House.

That means those that the CIC will be entitled to a copy for their shareholding. As will all individual investors in the club.

Hopefully they will share.

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Trike1 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:31 pm

fair enough lo i was unsure as to any other expenses
but...
skelmersdale got promoted this year and had the highest average of 236
so why on earth are budgeted to need 6x that much, it just doesnt make sense to me

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Hilly » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:36 pm

lo36789 wrote:
Hilly wrote:Forgive me because I'm not fully up to speed with the whole CIC thing, but is there a plan to release a snapshot of the clubs accounts? e.g. at the AGM?
As far as I am aware. Shareholders in a company are entitled to the abbreviated accounts which are submitted to Companies House.

That means those that the CIC will be entitled to a copy for their shareholding. As will all individual investors in the club.

Hopefully they will share.
Is there a date when this is needed to be done by i.e. did they need to be submitted by the end of the financial year, if so, I guess the question is when is the CIC's financial year?

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by JPearson97 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:39 pm

lo36789 wrote: We are not going to get 1,450 fans. We are going to get an average of 1,300 next season.
I disagree. Last season we averaged 1,319 with 14 home games being played mid-week. The upcoming season should see more free Saturdays with less league games scheduled, although not by much, and less postponements (11 last season!) due to us having the pitch covers back. Away games are also much further away, meaning our fans are more likely to turn their attention to home games.

With all that said, it is shambolic that we have to average around the 1,450 mark to break-even at step-4. Our rent isn't extortionate and it's not as if we are paying out silly wages either, so questions have to be asked on where the money is going. What's it going to be like next season if we get promotion, no doubt we'd need even more fans coming through the gate to cover extra travelling costs as the Evo-Stik Premier fluctuates more south towards the Birmingham and Sheffield area.

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by mikkyx » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:43 pm

I'm sure at the fans forum he went on to finish that statement with "excluding sponsorship revenues" - in other words, a break even of 1,450 if we ended up playing next season with no match ball / match day / pitch side sponsorships and in a blank home shirt. Could be wrong about the exact wording though.
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by micra3 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:49 pm

Finances to be released at the AGM in September-will have a better understanding then.
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by lo36789 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:59 pm

mikkyx wrote:if we ended up playing next season with no match ball
I am certain there are things we can't cut :P

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Spyman » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:59 pm

Maybe he means 1,450 BEFORE PAYING THE DEBT OFF.

So the attendance of 1,450 allows us to operate whilst still paying off the debt. Once the debt is gone, we operate on substantially less than this?

Could this be an interpretation of what was said, or am I desperately clutching at straws? Because realistically, I just can't see where that amount of money is going otherwise.
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Quakerz » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:25 pm

Trike1 wrote:so this is what i have come up with

1450 x 10.00 = 14,500 x 21 = £304,500

44 x 100 x 20 player is 88k

20k for rental of hp

so thats 108k without travel

the above figures dont include sponsorship or any other revenue streams
im at a loss
100k solicitors was mentioned on Twitter.

We're a piss ant Evostik club. If the above is true, we're being bled dry.
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by dickdarlington » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:27 pm

I'm really confused and concerned. From the forum I took it that the 1450 was to clear the debt within the next season.

If it's just to break even, then what the f*** has happened? I refuse to accept that we can't run on last seasons figures when clubs are in the conference on crowds smaller than we get.

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Fatty eats roadkill » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:36 pm

Aren't we paying off the debts at a faster rate than needed? If so then the way I read it is that if we continue to pay at that rate then we need that amount of fans. The clue is the phrase- existing debt repayments.
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by Quakerz » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:39 pm

JPearson97 wrote:
lo36789 wrote: We are not going to get 1,450 fans. We are going to get an average of 1,300 next season.
I disagree. Last season we averaged 1,319 with 14 home games being played mid-week. The upcoming season should see more free Saturdays with less league games scheduled, although not by much, and less postponements (11 last season!) due to us having the pitch covers back. Away games are also much further away, meaning our fans are more likely to turn their attention to home games.

With all that said, it is shambolic that we have to average around the 1,450 mark to break-even at step-4. Our rent isn't extortionate and it's not as if we are paying out silly wages either, so questions have to be asked on where the money is going. What's it going to be like next season if we get promotion, no doubt we'd need even more fans coming through the gate to cover extra travelling costs as the Evo-Stik Premier fluctuates more south towards the Birmingham and Sheffield area.
I think you are being very optimistic if you think attendances will rise. I think, at best, that we'll average the same. Though being realistic we'll probably average less.

Reasons -

1 We're playing loads of clubs that no fucker has heard of. Who the fuck are Cammel Laird? New Mills? Prescott fucking Cables? Clitheroe? Who the fuck are they? Point being, they're hardly attractive names that will bring curious extra fans in.

2 How many away fans are these clubs going to bring? Some pub team with 80 fans and a stupid name, that is 120 miles away. Will they bring 5? Any at all? Even in the Northern League, we had a) some semi recognisably named opponents, and b) at least a few teams brought 20 or 30, with a couple or three 100+ followings.

3 Second season in Bishop. It'll be harder to motivate your fair weathers to come regularly this time around - we no longer have the whole "newly owned by the fans thing" to motivate those who only need half an excuse not to attend. They'll be more likely to think "can't be bothered to travel there".

On the pitch, we've a fantastic, exciting team, and a fantastic management, so I'm sure it'll be another season of glory. If we don't go bust.

Off the field, no doubt we'll get more of the same "nearly went into administration, club needs more money, more than ever" at various points during the season.
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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by tezza » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:50 pm

Below is the extract from MJ, taken from 1883 site.




"In the latest, ever-changing version of our financial plans for next season, our football activity represents approximately 70% of total revenues and our current business model requires an average attendance in excess of 1,450 per match (actual 1,319 last season) to break even next year, before meeting existing debt repayments."

MJ goes on
"This is all fine whilst we are top of the league and attendances are good but clearly this is totally unacceptable as the financial consequences of playing at higher levels begin to strike home."

Is he stating that the 30% income from sponsorship/commercial activity must improve as it is currently unacceptable ?
Is he pushing a move back to Darlington up the agenda, as the consequences of a failed season, out of town, with no increase in third party revenue, could render the patient in operable ?

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Re: Fans Forum 12th June

Post by shawry » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:51 pm

When I first read the speech I concerned that we needed 1450 before meeting existing debt, however I guess theres a few ways to look at it.

If we maintain a 70/30 split in matchday/non matchday income we need 1450, however we have apparently already exceeded last years commercial income I think, so that should reduce that.

The 1450 could include the debt, but the phrasing is a little misleading (hopefully) in that its saying we cant meet the existing debt repayments unless we get 1450 gates.

Im hoping that both these statements are true, because if that is the case its not too bad, if they are incorrect, then it feels like we may as well give up now.

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