This Rooney Rule farce

Discussion of footy that ISN'T centred around Darlo!

Moderators: mikkyx, uncovered

Post Reply
User avatar
TSQuaker
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:56 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

This Rooney Rule farce

Post by TSQuaker » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:24 pm

I really am struggling to think of an idea that's more ridiculous than the above. What an absolute waste of time such a ruling would be.
Northern League Champions 2013

lo36789
Posts: 10927
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:58 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by lo36789 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:08 pm

I don't know where I stand on it. The stats don't look good, for the percentage of black players we have there are a staggering low number of black managers.

I find it difficult to comprehend what would go through a chairman's mind to not choose the best candidate?

I personally find the 'focus women/feminist' stuff quite aggressive, in the same way I find Jason Roberts and Sol Campbell when they talk on racism. It is probably quite easy as a white male to dismiss that it isn't necessary, that the cream to rise to the top, but maybe I am just naive.

I would suggest that focussing on non league may be a better approach. Maybe it is just me, but all the reports seem to be around not getting interviews at league clubs. I don't believe there are that many white managers that just get interviews without at least either a) some managerial experience at more obscure clubs or b) having been at least an assistant manager previously.

User avatar
Spyman
Posts: 12643
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:04 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by Spyman » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:31 pm

I find it especially hard to believe it would have any real impact when a growing number of clubs are owned by multi-millionaires, many of whom are from all over the world.

Yes it is surprising that only 2 of 92 clubs in the top 4 tiers are managed by black men. Maybe it's naive to think it's not down to racism. I'd like to know that stats on the number of aspirational black managers out there though - what percentage of applications are coming in compared to other ethnicities?

It could be a generational thing. The top jobs will tend to go to experienced managers who have had years of success. These will be the guys in their late 50s, and perhaps from the generation before the influx of players from all over the world and the increase in multi-culturalism in the game. I suspect in 20 years time we'll see a very different demographic.

I remember when Paul Ince was given a Premiership job having successfully battled relegation from League 2 and having got someone else's squad promoted from League 2. Much more experienced and successful managers who hadn't played for some of the biggest teams in Europe wouldn't have been afforded the same opportunity with the same managerial experience - black or white.
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC

User avatar
TSQuaker
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:56 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by TSQuaker » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:37 pm

It's a ludicrous idea. If Jose Mourinho left Chelsea and the only black applicant was Sol Campbell, would Campbell really go into that interview believing he had a realistic chance of getting the job?

I also don't understand why it seemingly only concerns managers. What about physios or tea ladies? Where does it end?
Northern League Champions 2013

User avatar
TSQuaker
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:56 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by TSQuaker » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:44 pm

I tell you what really doesn't help. Sol Campbell and the complete and utter drivel that he spouts on a regular basis:

'Get rid of Gary Neville and get me in instead,' he said. 'I've done all the badges.'

'But the career I have had should warrant me getting a job.'

'But I was getting better and better. I became one of the best defenders in the world and then the best defender in the world and captain of my domestic side. But the better you get the further away you get (from the England captaincy). To me it's not right. 'You conduct yourself in a proper way, in a proper manner, not falling out of night clubs and things like that'
Northern League Champions 2013

User avatar
Darlo will
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:17 pm
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: Northallerton

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by Darlo will » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:46 pm

One point that no one seems to make, and i think is quite important is the following:

Almost all managers played the professional game earlier in their careers. At the time the current generation of managers were playing, there were very few black players. The question is then, where do people expect good black managers to come from? it is my opinion that, given another 5-10 years there will be many more black managers in the football league, simply because there will be many more black players retiring and entering management.

I may be wrong but think its a good point to make
We score when we want
we score when we want
we are darlo
we score when we want

User avatar
theoriginalfatcat
Posts: 6717
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:40 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by theoriginalfatcat » Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:00 pm

A football chairman will employ the person they believe will get the best results.

Therefore they would have no qualms about giving the job to a green skinned space alien - if said green skinned space alien's "points to games played" stats stood up to scrutiny.
Profile pic ↗️
Feethams the Panda. 28 Jan 2012.
Now extinct!

User avatar
Spyman
Posts: 12643
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:04 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by Spyman » Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:57 pm

TSQuaker wrote:I tell you what really doesn't help. Sol Campbell and the complete and utter drivel that he spouts on a regular basis:

'Get rid of Gary Neville and get me in instead,' he said. 'I've done all the badges.'

'But the career I have had should warrant me getting a job.'

'But I was getting better and better. I became one of the best defenders in the world and then the best defender in the world and captain of my domestic side. But the better you get the further away you get (from the England captaincy). To me it's not right. 'You conduct yourself in a proper way, in a proper manner, not falling out of night clubs and things like that'
I had this conversation at the weekend, and basically, Campbell has undone his entire argument by putting himself alongside Gary Neville.

Campbell and Neville basically played in the same period for club and country. Not a lot to call between them internationally, bit Neville achieved a lot more for his club and has built a reputation as a pundit.

If Campbell had compared himself to Southgate perhaps, or John Ferry if he ever moved in to management, fair enough. Bit it seems Campbell was far more concerned with milking Portsmouth and Notts Co for every penny rather than fulfilling his playing days at the highest level he could like Neville did.
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC

User avatar
Spyman
Posts: 12643
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:04 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by Spyman » Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:58 pm

Darlo will wrote:One point that no one seems to make, and i think is quite important is the following:

Almost all managers played the professional game earlier in their careers. At the time the current generation of managers were playing, there were very few black players. The question is then, where do people expect good black managers to come from? it is my opinion that, given another 5-10 years there will be many more black managers in the football league, simply because there will be many more black players retiring and entering management.

I may be wrong but think its a good point to make
Good point. Glad nobody made it earlier in the thread.
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC

User avatar
Darlo will
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:17 pm
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: Northallerton

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by Darlo will » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:43 am

Spyman wrote:
Darlo will wrote:One point that no one seems to make, and i think is quite important is the following:

Almost all managers played the professional game earlier in their careers. At the time the current generation of managers were playing, there were very few black players. The question is then, where do people expect good black managers to come from? it is my opinion that, given another 5-10 years there will be many more black managers in the football league, simply because there will be many more black players retiring and entering management.

I may be wrong but think its a good point to make
Good point. Glad nobody made it earlier in the thread.
I know right! You must have posted while I was writing that out. :crazy:
We score when we want
we score when we want
we are darlo
we score when we want

User avatar
DarloOnTheUp
Posts: 6337
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:35 am
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:03 pm

I personally think on a personal level that personally in my own opinion and nobody else's that it's a generational thing and in 5-10-20 years time we'll see more black managers because of reasons.

In before anyone else.

User avatar
Geordie Quaker
Posts: 629
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:32 am
Team Supported: Darlington
Location: See Username

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by Geordie Quaker » Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:35 pm

Whilst black people may be under-represented in management terms, I would imagine (without the stats in front of me) that the same group are over-represented in playing terms.

Maybe there should also be a 'Wayne Rooney rule' to ensure white players get sufficient opportunities for playing contracts.

*posts same message on the Daily Mail website*

User avatar
TSQuaker
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:56 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by TSQuaker » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:26 pm

Geordie Quaker wrote:Whilst black people may be under-represented in management terms, I would imagine (without the stats in front of me) that the same group are over-represented in playing terms.

Maybe there should also be a 'Wayne Rooney rule' to ensure white players get sufficient opportunities for playing contracts.

*posts same message on the Daily Mail website*
That's a bit too tame for the Daily Mail GQ
Northern League Champions 2013

BaronsCourtQuaker
Posts: 767
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:52 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by BaronsCourtQuaker » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:25 pm

Quite a long article on the rule here.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29685485

I can't see any chairmen not interviewing candidates who will get them the best results, would people seriously appoint a lesser person if he where white, I just can't get my head around that.

The article is in parts interesting, the number of black head coaches compared to after the rule surprises me. Yet drawing comparisons with the English Leagues is hard as i think its safe to safe that the US have historically had a harder time dealing with race relations than we have.

I don't see it as a bad thing if introduced but I cant help think it will simply bring the issue higher on the agenda that may then have a placebo type effect rather than people sitting there thinking "wow why didn't we hire Paul Ince" will it not simply lead to a quota on candidates.

User avatar
TSQuaker
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:56 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by TSQuaker » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:30 pm

I agree - now if Jose Mourinho was black, and he was beaten to the Chelsea job by someone like Steve Lomas then I think there could be a case.

It's just that there are more successful white managers than there are black. There is nothing racist in that whatsoever.

It wouldn't bother me if we appointed a black, homosexual, religious stamp collector if he managed to get results.
Northern League Champions 2013

BaronsCourtQuaker
Posts: 767
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:52 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by BaronsCourtQuaker » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:48 pm

You have to draw the line at stamp collectors no? :)

A little like lo said earlier, im not sure if its because I am middle aged and white that im not sensitive to this, but just can't see it being like the US here. There are teams owned by the same family for 90 odd years in the NFL where I presume prejudices have possibly been passed down.

User avatar
loan_star
Posts: 7103
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:01 am
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by loan_star » Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:01 pm

Spyman wrote: If Campbell had compared himself to Southgate perhaps, or John Ferry if he ever moved in to management, fair enough. Bit it seems Campbell was far more concerned with milking Portsmouth and Notts Co for every penny rather than fulfilling his playing days at the highest level he could like Neville did.
Talking about Portsmouth, there was a game live on Sky a couple of years ago when they played at Villa. Portsmouth had ONE white player in the team and even he was foreign!! Didn't hear Campbell complaining that day!

TDS
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:15 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by TDS » Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:48 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29976832

Institutional discrimination in football eh!

:roll:

When will it end?

User avatar
DarloOnTheUp
Posts: 6337
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:35 am
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:11 pm

They're making causal links where none necessarily exist.

The sparsity of black managers is definitely a fact, but to suggest it's because of racism is creating a causal link where there isn't necessarily one in existence.

Stats showing a lack of black managers prove that there is a lack of black managers, and that's it. Anything more is an assumption.

lo36789
Posts: 10927
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:58 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by lo36789 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:59 pm

I saw an article earlier that mentioned that Paul Ince and Chris Houghton weren't included as they are qualified but out of work.

Now just out of interested to know how many qualified white managers are out of work. I'd be interested to know proportionally how many BME managers are out of work to in work compared with their white counterparts.

I have no idea what it would show but all the articles dont make any reference to the stats on the ethnicity of those eligible for roles.

User avatar
Spyman
Posts: 12643
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:04 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by Spyman » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:57 pm

lo36789 wrote:I saw an article earlier that mentioned that Paul Ince and Chris Houghton weren't included as they are qualified but out of work.

Now just out of interested to know how many qualified white managers are out of work. I'd be interested to know proportionally how many BME managers are out of work to in work compared with their white counterparts.

I have no idea what it would show but all the articles dont make any reference to the stats on the ethnicity of those eligible for roles.
There are zero white managers out of work, the same as the number of black managers out of work.
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC

BaronsCourtQuaker
Posts: 767
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:52 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by BaronsCourtQuaker » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:25 am

I was listening to the Sunday Supplement (from Sky) yesterday and (i can think who was making the point) that the Rooney Rule is a good thing but hard to put into immediate practice for the Premiership due to the short term demands placed by the chairmen.

The solution put forward it should be introduced in the championship and down to begin with. :roll:

User avatar
Spyman
Posts: 12643
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:04 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by Spyman » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:27 pm

BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:
The solution put forward it should be introduced in the championship and down to begin with. :roll:
:lol:
On Sunday April 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm, Darlo Cockney wrote:Sadly some people have nothing better to do that invent rumours.

We will be playing at the arena again next season - fact.

Quakerz - if you actually attended games and spoke to people you might actually find our facts, rather than spreading s*** on this board.

DC

User avatar
TSQuaker
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:56 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by TSQuaker » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:06 pm

BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:I was listening to the Sunday Supplement (from Sky) yesterday and (i can think who was making the point) that the Rooney Rule is a good thing but hard to put into immediate practice for the Premiership due to the short term demands placed by the chairmen.

The solution put forward it should be introduced in the championship and down to begin with. :roll:
That was Oliver Holt if I remember correctly.
Northern League Champions 2013

User avatar
DarloOnTheUp
Posts: 6337
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:35 am
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by DarloOnTheUp » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:34 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30017857
"I don't want to be interviewed because it's filling a quota," Under-16s coach Dyer told the Daily Telegraph.

Bramble said: "The rule is a disgrace."
Finally, some sense being spoken.

BaronsCourtQuaker
Posts: 767
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:52 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by BaronsCourtQuaker » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:46 am

TSQuaker wrote:
BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:I was listening to the Sunday Supplement (from Sky) yesterday and (i can think who was making the point) that the Rooney Rule is a good thing but hard to put into immediate practice for the Premiership due to the short term demands placed by the chairmen.

The solution put forward it should be introduced in the championship and down to begin with. :roll:
That was Oliver Holt if I remember correctly.

yup pretty sure your correct it was Holt, who earlier had said he was very pro it.

User avatar
TSQuaker
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:56 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by TSQuaker » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:32 am

He wrote a column on the idea yesterday morning in the Mirror.
Northern League Champions 2013

BaronsCourtQuaker
Posts: 767
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:52 pm
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by BaronsCourtQuaker » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:11 am

TSQuaker wrote:He wrote a column on the idea yesterday morning in the Mirror.
this one http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/ ... ed-4610664

?

he doesn't actually say much in it. The funny thing is I don't think anyone would ever argue that having more black managers is a bad thing. However i just don't get pro discrimination.

Football is a closed shop because that's what it is not many people are qualified for the jobs. Likewise when a job does become available it is the same (previously sacked and failed) managers linked (via the media such as Holt) to the vacancies.

Its such a strange argument that I just don't get.

Darlogramps
Posts: 6025
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:47 am
Team Supported: Darlington

Re: This Rooney Rule farce

Post by Darlogramps » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:20 pm

BaronsCourtQuaker wrote:
TSQuaker wrote:He wrote a column on the idea yesterday morning in the Mirror.
this one http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/ ... ed-4610664

?

he doesn't actually say much in it. The funny thing is I don't think anyone would ever argue that having more black managers is a bad thing. However i just don't get pro discrimination.

Football is a closed shop because that's what it is not many people are qualified for the jobs. Likewise when a job does become available it is the same (previously sacked and failed) managers linked (via the media such as Holt) to the vacancies.

Its such a strange argument that I just don't get.
I do find it ironic that Holt is banging on about the lack of black managers in football, when the lack of black football journalists is just as bad a problem.

At last count (and I could be wrong), there were two black sports journalists working on national newspapers.

Sports journalism, particularly on national newspapers, is as much of a closed shop for middle-aged white men as football management and administration.

I wonder if Mr Holt would countenance the Rooney rule being introduced for sports journalists as well.

People in glass houses and all that...
If ever you're bored or miserable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlZohZoadGY

Post Reply